PMDG June 3 update

[Sonosusto 666]

4 hours ago, Jeeeno said:

PMDG forum is widely known as one of the most toxic forums regarding flight simulation. 

I disagree but not entirely. All flight sim forums are pretty much toxic and petty.

This is just a hobby....

I wish the moderators would lock these ridiculous discussions out. They are not helping.

For Avsim....PMDG update = NO EFB debate.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Sonosusto

[carlanthony24 572]

Just now, Sonosusto said:

I disagree but not entirely.

I will correct that statement and say pretty much all flight simulation forums are toxic, petty and full of insecure hobbyists.

This.Is.Just.A.Hobby.

Have to agree. I think if PMDG decided to be more honest and not constantly blame Asobo it may be a different story to how people now see them.

[Lucky38i 1,094]

1 hour ago, nrunning24 said:

Gosh this is why this hobby is so toxic.  Use the wrong terminology in an offhand forum post and all of a sudden you dont know what your talking about according to "internet people". 
 

I could only make a comment based on what you said, how else should I have interpreted it. You said you were happy to be corrected, I apologise if you interpreted me as being toxic. I have no aims to generate animosity here. Last thing we need is to be less inviting in the hobby.

1 hour ago, nrunning24 said:

I have a masters in Engineering.  I worked as an engineer at  Boeing for 8 years on the 787 in production, including being an airline facing systems engineer for many of those years.  Happy to send you my LinkedIn profile as proof.  Sure database wasn't the right word, but anyone remotely honest will understand what I meant.  Prosim is more than just a "ECAM simulator" and anyone who portrays it as that (especially a "Flybywire developer") obviously isn't being honest.

there’s certain parameters that are seperate to the function of the ECAM that doesn’t require a high degree of implementation to have bearing on the ECAM’s function and it’s underlying systems and interdependencies. Prosim is amazing at what it does which is why it’s used commercial for training I have no doubts on its authenticity for what it’s made to do. 

1 hour ago, nrunning24 said:

What you don't say is to properly be an "ECAM Simulator" you actually have to monitor all systems (and model those systems accurately) per Airbus logic and how pilot interactions affect those systems.  AKA model an Airbus......  That's the whole point the "ECAM Simulator" is modeling Airbus systems logic to a very specific degree.

I agree wholeheartedly, to an extent. If Fenix Prosim did everything in needed the model an Airbus, they would’ve released a model running on prosim. However the dev log showcases the monumental changes they made before initial release. The v2 dev log further showcases the fallacies of prosim and where Fenix improved upon or even scrapped out entirely and did up from scratch.

1 hour ago, nrunning24 said:

Not working with Prosim would have added years to development (if they could have even completed it at all).

 

Once again I agree, it was a very good framework but was never going to be the end game.

1 hour ago, nrunning24 said:

To prove the point Fenix couldn't even get the engine fuel model to be within a margin of error of book values as of today......   V2 is taking much longer than expected.... What confidence do we have that they even have the ability to deliver? 

The V2 devlog very well explains what they’ve done, start various modules from scratch. A year’s dev time seems rather apt for that no? With regards on their ability to deliver, I’m not really sure how that could be proven to you besides devlogs. However, a long development time isn’t anything new to the simming world.

1 hour ago, nrunning24 said:

BTW I no longer work at Boeing (I quit to start my own company), and dont have a preference between Airbus and Boeing if you think this is somehow affecting my analysis here.  I have criticisms for both companies and their design process/methods.

Not at all 🙂

 

just wanted to reiterate on the apology if animosity was felt towards you, a civil conversation is all aim for here to better understand the thoughts and opinions of the folk here.

[Maxis 1,830]

4 minutes ago, carlanthony24 said:

I did leave it their no point posting anymore on his Youtube when you get someone who thinks they know best. Yes but has usual the threads go to other topics. Funny my first comment was replying to someone else and at first when people started to mention the 40% issue the devs including said person said nothing is wrong and that its correct. It obviously wasn't when more and more started to complain.

Just to say not stirring anything but truth. 

Obviously you haven't but whatever.

One can hope the forums here can get to a point where viewpoints can be posted and moved on from or moderation implemented when the actual topic at hand is exhausted. because frankly my eyes start to roll whenever i see PMDG gets mentioned in this forum as the usual suspects start to highjack the thread and people without an axe to grind either skip the thread or get sucked in to the toxic attitudes and behavior. I stepped to the ledge by responding to a few posts and have regretted it because frankly i don't want to join the "scrum". 

Having learned the lesson. ( Grab the original message/intent of any PMDG thread and make a quick exit before the incessant over complaining starts) 

I'm out .. you may have the floor.

Have a good one.

[carlanthony24 572]

7 minutes ago, Maxis said:

Obviously you haven't but whatever.

One can hope the forums here can get to a point where viewpoints can be posted and moved on from or moderation implemented when the actual topic at hand is exhausted. because frankly my eyes start to roll whenever i see PMDG gets mentioned in this forum as the usual suspects start to highjack the thread and people without an axe to grind either skip the thread or get sucked in to the toxic attitudes and behavior. I stepped to the ledge by responding to a few posts and have regretted it because frankly i don't want to join the "scrum". 

Having learned the lesson. ( Grab the original message/intent of any PMDG thread and make a quick exit before the incessant over complaining starts) 

I'm out .. you may have the floor.

Have a good one.

Not sure if you did not read what I put correctly but I did stop commenting on any of the youtube videos since about 2 months ago.... This is a forum like any other forum the same things will get said regardless if that is something you can not handle then maybe its not the right place to be.... Usual suspects stating facts most of the time and usual suspects defending like nothing has never happened but what ever its always going to be the same. 

To be honest the first page quickly moved to Fenix but hey its a forum its going to happen same compared to Discord same things get mentioned time and time again....

Cya soon

 

[F737MAX 5,490]

46 minutes ago, Sonosusto said:

I wish the moderators would lock these ridiculous discussions out. They are not helping.

For Avsim....PMDG update = NO EFB debate.

Don't agree there.

People can and should be able to discuss what they want within the forum rules.

You don't have to read or participate in a topic you don't like and there's always the ignore option:

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/570451-how-to-deal-with-a-user-whose-posts-you-cant-tolerate/

[DD_Arthur 1,032]

5 hours ago, LRBS said:

to the extent that it raises doubts about his authenticity as a pilot. One might question whether he is being paid to conceal the bugs 

Really? By a strange coincidence your posts always seem to raise exactly the same doubts.

Do really think he’s being paid to ‘conceal bugs’? Think about that hard…

 

[F737MAX 5,490]

2 hours ago, nrunning24 said:

Completely fair, I think my point was the engine models weren't correct on release to begin with, whos to say those can actually be done correctly by the team in V2. 

True. If the new engine model doesn't work per what was stipulated, then owners can justifiably call out the issue. We just don't know yet.

The difference is PMDG have released an airliner, a regressive issue was discovered and a forum rep appears to dismiss the concern:

Quote

As for the issue.again it affects only the spool rate below 40% N1. It is there? Yes. It causes the plane to be non flyable? No

I want and expect better from the only competent Boeing airliner developer in MSFS.

[threexgreen 3,133]

1 hour ago, LRBS said:

But please make no mistake, I did not say that the particular Youtuber is paid. I mentioned, "One might question whether he is being paid to conceal the bugs associated with the PMDG brand". I just find it odd that he constantly makes statements about how good it is (and in certain aspects it is true, undeniable), while the obvious bugs are completely not mentioned. 

Regarding being a distasteful and sad situation, I fully agree.  

But we should keep in mind that if he believes is appropriate to fight with the customer about valid bugs, delete messages, and block people from pointing out these issues, RSR should expect this kind of dissatisfaction. He sees all these findings as personal attacks versus that the customer wants to see improvements. He is the one setting this undesirable reaction. 

Why he is not directing certain people part of the beta team to stand down and just do their role versus fighting? His song is being sung by them. I completely understand your viewpoint that individuals do not necessarily have to like him. However, I strongly believe that when he resorts to mudslinging, it rarely leads to a positive outcome.

Why RSR is not taking a break and fixing the actual bugs that affect his products is beyond understanding. IMHO there is no good excuse to develop and sell a product with so many bugs (as he has consistently carried out all of these actions in both the past and present) and to keep on going like this.

If you meant to say it seems as if he was being paid, i.e. leaving the impression, but did not actually think so, fair enough. I've seen the accusation a few times when it was serious, so that's why I interpreted this is an actual accusation, although I do think your wording is pretty close to that.

As for the rest - this is just my opinion - I find you're painting an incredibly one sided picture here as do many others. I have seen what you're talking about, but I have also seen the opposite of everything being criticized here. There is truth to it to an extent, I'm not denying that, but, from my own experience, it's frankly not nearly as bad as it's made out to be and certainly doesn't warrant this constant, incessant repeating of the same things every time someone mentions PMDG to the point there is no discussion that doesn't turn into what I believe @Maxis pretty much nailed above.

We can agree to disagree if that's fine with you; I didn't plan on participating in this other than make that initial comment about the youtuber supposedly being paid.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Nixoq

[nrunning24 151]

1 hour ago, Lucky38i said:

I could only make a comment based on what you said, how else should I have interpreted it. You said you were happy to be corrected, I apologise if you interpreted me as being toxic. I have no aims to generate animosity here. Last thing we need is to be less inviting in the hobby.

there’s certain parameters that are seperate to the function of the ECAM that doesn’t require a high degree of implementation to have bearing on the ECAM’s function and it’s underlying systems and interdependencies. Prosim is amazing at what it does which is why it’s used commercial for training I have no doubts on its authenticity for what it’s made to do. 

I agree wholeheartedly, to an extent. If Fenix Prosim did everything in needed the model an Airbus, they would’ve released a model running on prosim. However the dev log showcases the monumental changes they made before initial release. The v2 dev log further showcases the fallacies of prosim and where Fenix improved upon or even scrapped out entirely and did up from scratch.

Once again I agree, it was a very good framework but was never going to be the end game.

The V2 devlog very well explains what they’ve done, start various modules from scratch. A year’s dev time seems rather apt for that no? With regards on their ability to deliver, I’m not really sure how that could be proven to you besides devlogs. However, a long development time isn’t anything new to the simming world.

Not at all 🙂

 

just wanted to reiterate on the apology if animosity was felt towards you, a civil conversation is all aim for here to better understand the thoughts and opinions of the folk here.

thanks for the follow up.  I think sometimes these threads can spin out of control.  Just is frustrating when you feel like unless you start every topic with your professional credentials you are sometimes treated like you don't know anything.  My original point way back was just that both PMDG and Fenix are ports of some sort.  And we should hold them to similar standards, which doesnt feel like that is the case with the majority of the people here.  

As for V2 being less Prosim biased, again I'll hold them to the PMDG standard and say "show me".  Its great that their is this changelog out there, but I can only go on released product.  

PMDG needs to release a EFB, its been promised as part of early access and they should be held to that.  Fenix needs to release IAE and Sharklets, as it was promised on release as well.  Both are doing lots of talking and not much action.  Lets hold them to the same standard together   (Either give both PMDG and Fenix a pass due to technical difficulties and good communication, or hold both their feet to the fire).  Anyone advocating for different approaches to both isn't being intellectually consistent.

[737NG Driver 41]

Had a good laugh reading through this topic and the comments about my channel.

Even though I was unsure if I should answer to something like this at 10PM or not, giving that opinions are made up anyway and whatever I'll post, it'll be turned against me and again PMDG anyway and even *if* I would be able to settle some conspiracy theories in *this* topic, things would start over again in the next one, probably even by the same people.

As always when PMDG in involved - or when people even think PMDG is involved - there's enough haters around the block that whatever you do, say or even don't-say will be turned against you in the most ridicolous ways. For that reason this will be my only post in this discussion, whatever aforementioned people will make out of it. And if anybody now thinks I find some people in here would spend their time much better going out to a bar and meeting some nice ladies, then you are absolutely right.

Anyway, let's quickly adress the mostly voiced concern. I did so a couple times already on my channel, in fact everything I am about to write has already been mentioned on my channel in either dedicated videos (two of them to be precise), or in community posts. Instead of going over it all again I'll simply refer you to those.
So, what led to some people being upset these days? Under my video about the most recent PMDG update there came quite some EFB comments, some nicer, others not so nice. As I do just not have the time to moderate them and as I honestly simply am quite fed up with reading the same complaints all over again, I simply deleted those comments.
Why did I do that? For a simple few reasons:
1) I am not PMDG. If you want to complain to PMDG then use the right channels. For complaints that's their support ticket system. They don't read all kinds of different social media, so what will your EFB complaints actually achieve under my video? Nothing.
2) I just can't be bothered moderating childing nonsense. All valid reasons for being unhappy about the EFB aside (and there are many), the vast majority were simply stupid childish nonsense. I'm running my channel in my spare time and contrary to what some chaps said in here I do NOT get paid by PMDG and I simply have better ways of spending my spare time than moderating stupid allegations.
3) Even IF I wanted to do the moderation I would not have the time to do so. Before someone now says "well, then get a moderator", my answer to that will be no. It's my hobby to run that channel and I will keep doing it alone. I simply have better things to spend my energy on than finding the right people to moderate there, let alone paying anyone to do so.

Now let's adress some of the conspiracy theories i keep seeing over and over.

Conspiracy theory #1: "PMDG pays a youtuber to broadcast whatever-kind-of-information"
Wrong. I did not, nor will I ever in whatever relation, get money from PMDG. I said it from the beginning when I founded the channel and two more times thereafter in videos and community posts, just refer to them.

Conspiracy theory #2: "That guy only posts good about PMDG"
Wrong. I did mention bugs with the PMDG when I came across them. Heared me complain about engine startup and engine behaviour? Elevator Deadband? Just to name two out of many which frequent viewers of, especially, my livestreams will hear me say.
Okok, I'll give you guys one, so that whoever wants to can now run to PMDG and say "your tester said xyz, why isn't it fixed? The addon is unflyable, I want my money back"
Engine Spool Rates: They're totally unrealistic. Not even close. They weren't before the update, they aren't now, they won't be afterwards. And why? Because MSFS simply makes it impossible. Fix one, break the other. The same goes for P3D by the way, in case anyone wonders... and no, no other airline dev got it right either.
However it should be equally clear to anyone that someone in one of PMDGs teams - the technical advisor and the beta team in my case - has signed an NDA. So yes, I just broke that NDA by saying that. Anybody who wants me removed from the tech team can now run to Rob and complain that I broke my NDA. I never made a secret out of having an NDA. Any tester for any flight sim company has. If you guys want to bring up for example my review of the 737-700, the most often said thing you'll hear me say in there is that my view is probably biased. But fine, I know that it's much more fun to complain and try to find the worlds conspiracy, so I'll just let you guys keep doing that.
HOWEVER (#2): There simply IS a LOT of good stuff to be said about the PMDG addons. Because they simply *are* top notch. Probably best in business, though you might disagree with the latter statement. And obvious since I was involved deeply in their creation I know all the good stuff - and in case of bad stuff I also know the reasons for most of those. Do you think I never brough the engine spool rate up during development? Of course I did. And spent countless hours with the devs trying to bring up a good solution. To the point where it was just not possible to get it any better (or any good... as you want to see it). Now why would I wine about it on my channel, when I know it can't be improved? That wouldn't seem logical.

Conspiracy theory #3: "That guy only posts bad about others"
Again, wrong. Just look at my videos about BlackSquare, many about Fenix, the ATR, about the MD-80, etc. Plenty of stuff there for you to check.
I had a good laugh though, when someone said earlier in this thread that I would have hyped the PMDG EFB by saying there's only one true EFB out there, etc. Mate, you might want to watch that video again, it wasn't about the PMDG EFB, it was about the Fenix EFB.
In one point you guys are right though: I do say many bad things about many bad addons. And that's for a simple reason: Those mentioned addons are word not allowed. word not allowed compared to their own product pages description. And if somebody tries to sell word not allowed as gold - as is the case more and more in flight simulation these days - then I have no problem whatsoever to say my opinion on those addons. And if anyone wants to bring on legal proceedings they're welcome to do so. Youtube got my contact details, anything a lawyer needs to sue me. Lawyers will know how to obtain those. Bring it on.

Conspiracy theory #4: "That guy doesn't allow free speach..."
True (for real... I said it!). I don't care about anyones right for free speach, which doesn't even exist on youtube. If somebody posts the 1000th insult about PMDG without adding anything constructive to it then I just don't bother and delete it. You won't achieve anything posting that kind of stuff under my videos, first and foremost because I am not PMDG and secondly because PMDG have said a thousand times that if you have any critique you're welcome to send a support ticket or to post in their forum. If you just want to bash though, you'll probably get banned from their forum as well, which is exactly the right course of action if you got nothing useful to say, but just come to insult. Support tickets are your way.
And I tell you what, I simply can't be bothered to even discuss the same sh*t over again with people who got no clue what they're talking about (another EFB discussion? Won't bring you the EFB any quicker, so again, spend your time on something useful such as meeting nice ladies).
So yeah... if you want to post complain number 1001 feel free to do so. But don't think I care.

Conspiracy theory #5: "...nor does he react to critique on his videos"
Wrong. I react to critique. But not to everything posted, especially not if it includes insults or is written in the typical language used by many here on avsim.
I run the channel in my spare time, next to my full time job flying airplanes. If someone's got good suggestions or approaches me in a nice manner if I could improve something, then I'm always open for it, if someone on the other hands side starts a post with "that's word not allowed........." then you can be quite sure I won't care even reading it. And yes, I'm taking the freedom to act like this (I am well aware there will be plenty of "how arrogant" replies to this reply in this thread... but you know what? I don't even care (oh, how arrogant again!)) for the simple fact that it is my hobby to run that channel. I don't need to deal with the always-know-it-better fraction or with anyway who starts their post with an insult. I simply don't bother. If you dislike my content you're free to unsub and block my channel from your youtube suggestions. Easy as that. Makes it better for both of us, you don't need to view my stuff if you don't like it and I can take the limited time I have available to make things better for those, who like it and whom I can talk with in a decent manner.
Besides all this however, there's also quite some posts which I simply miss. When I started the channel I wanted to listen to as many comments as possible, but by now it has grown so big that there's simply so many comments being posted that it becomes impossible to read them all. Keep in mind guys, I'm not running a full time business there on youtube, but simply a dedicated hobby in my spare time, which certainly isn't too much these days.
Would you want to spend the time in your hobby with people posting nonsense about you? Neither do I, neither will I.

Now make of this post whatever you like. I won't comment in this post again, nor am I even regularly reading avsim, so don't expect me to react to this again. Indeed the only reason I saw this post in first place was because a friend of mine pointed me to it and we had a good laugh at some of the conspiracies posted here and I thought I might just give you a bit of an insight - even though I am 99,9% sure that for those who made up their minds already it won't do any difference anyway.
Alright then, enjoy the long weekend everyone.

[Bobsk8 12,489]

Nice to read something from someone who knows what they are talking about, instead of the PMDG Whiners that dwell on this forum. 

[dusty_sourdough907 73]

2 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

Nice to read something from someone who knows what they are talking about, instead of the PMDG Whiners that dwell on this forum. 

Ain't that true?

[Sonosusto 666]

4 hours ago, F737MAX said:

Don't agree there.

People can and should be able to discuss what they want within the forum rules.

You don't have to read or participate in a topic you don't like and there's always the ignore option:

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/570451-how-to-deal-with-a-user-whose-posts-you-cant-tolerate/

Again, disagree. This is about the PMDG update. Instead....like every singe forum regarding PMDG lately is whining and complaining about no EFB, this plane is better than that, or the textures look slightly off, etc etc

ad nauseam.

You don't need to send a link to another thread. I already read it a long time ago. You are right though. People should freely discuss whatever but instead of complaining incessantly about Fenix not having this, or the PMDG not having that, maybe it should be in a different thread.

It has nothing to do with the update. Just people complaining. So if you can't tolerant me trying to stick to the point of the OP's topic, then you should read:

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/570451-how-to-deal-with-a-user-whose-posts-you-cant-tolerate/

Now can we just discuss the PMDG update or lack there of? Or do we need to continue whining about the EFB again? Why can't someone create a thread for the EFB instead of constantly complaining about it here?

[Sonosusto 666]

3 hours ago, 737NG Driver said:

Had a good laugh reading through this topic and the comments about my channel.

Now make of this post whatever you like. I won't comment in this post again, nor am I even regularly reading avsim, so don't expect me to react to this again. Indeed the only reason I saw this post in first place was because a friend of mine pointed me to it and we had a good laugh at some of the conspiracies posted here and I thought I might just give you a bit of an insight - even though I am 99,9% sure that for those who made up their minds already it won't do any difference anyway.
Alright then, enjoy the long weekend everyone.

Thanks for that. This forum and the flight sim community alike are some of the most childish of adults. Know-it-alls and can't help but constantly complain. Hence my idea of moving these ridiculous thread highjackers to a different thread. They can complain about not having an EFB somewhere else. It's pointless banter.

Some of you all need more hobbies. Get outside. Do something else.