ATC in FSX

[Geofa 108]

I gotta agree that fsx atc is not much better than fs9 atc.But I also gotta mention-I get almost as much trouble from atc in the real world if not more.1) Lately-almost 60% chance real world atc will get my call sign wrong or my aircraft sign wrong...2) Good chance that my ifr plan will not be on file (thank to the new faa system where briefers can be 500-1000 miles away and not know anyting about your route or area when you file your plan)3) Chance that atc will forget to hand you off to the next controller4) Good chance that atc will vector you thru the ils or even forget about you5) Chance on the hand off that next controller will have no idea what you are doingJust some off the top of my head-and I love atc and know they are overworked and professionals etc.-and what the faa has been doing to them lately is horrible.But lots of screw ups in the real world as a daily basis. I'd like to see fs model more of this so I can be prepared...Imho-other than the over vectoring which I would love to see fixed-the fs9/fsx atc is sometimes much more realiable :-lolhttp://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpgForum Moderatorhttp://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[Guest stpierce]

Ken, try the free demo of voxatc. It will use the default AI FSX traffic and best of all, it is voice recognition. If you like being vectored in for landings, this program will satisfy.

[Guest SparrowHawk7]

Thanks guys ... I'll probably give all or most of the suggested programs a try and see what works best for my needs.Ken

[RFields5421 1]

Ken,As Mike (my retired controller friend) has often told me, pilots like to think they are in charge but it is the orders of the tower that they must obey whether they like them or not. That's where the control comes from in ATC.That does not happen in Flight Simulator. It is not designed to be done that way.FS is designed to allow a person who does not know how to create a flight, how to follow any FAA rules to get from airport A to airport B. Flight Simulator's default ATC is the simplest most basic possible - "Fly this heading" direction. That's all it is.If you want anything more, it's a steep learning curve.There is another "mode" to the ATC where you as the pilot can enhance your flight planning and ATC experience - but it does require you to learn a lot about how the system works, what it is capable of doing and most importantly - how to manipulate the computer program.While we might like a typical Flight Simulator 2004 / FSX clearance: "Cleared ILS Rwy 04R Approach, Cleared direct to INNDY"There are a lot of people flying FS who would have no clue what to do next, where to go, or how to get there.(That is a FS2004/ FSX clearance you will get if you are flying the KBOX ORW3:INNDY ILS04R approach and use the menu's to ask for the INNDY transition)You are dealing with a computer program. ATC in FS is more about learning the program capabilities than about learning ATC procedures.Radar Contact and VOXATC take more indepth approaches to the ATC by adding an intense program on top of FS - but again - it has a steep learning curve.I should not have to request certain things via my flight plan. Holds, for instance, are often required at times of heavy congestion so planes arriving can be lined up for landing and sometimes to bleed off altitude.Frankly the current generation computers cannot support the massive world FS has to deliver, and add more layers of processor cycles to expand the control of aircraft.Yes, we would all like context driven / situational ATC. But it ain't gonna happen until we get a lot more powerful computers.And Microsoft probably has their numbers correct. The number of people who want that level of specificity from the FS ATC is pretty small. They leave that to addons like Radar Contact and voxatc.For the ultimate in FS ATC control - there is always VATSIM - where you will have live human controllers. No computer program limitations.It may be my lack of experience, but I have never yet been ordered to hold at a fix while traffic clears and a place is made in line for me. I could perhaps request such a thing, but it should be ordered by the tower as needed.The FS2004/ FSX ATC will not control AI aircraft and order holds.Altitude is one thing where FS shines. You can request an approach with a transition. As you fly that approach in the GPS mode if your aircraft crosses a hold point too high, it will enter the hold. As you descend at a reasonable rate the plane will circle. When you are down to the target altitude (usually on the approach plate / chart), the aircraft will break out of the hold on the next circuit and continue the approach.One key to getting priority over AI aircraft - always decline the default visual approach or Vectors to ILS Approach. That puts you in the line of AI aircraft. If you choose any different approach - either ILS with a transition or RNAV(GPS) - you will have priority over AI aircraft.Secondly, it is not in compliance with FAA rules for a plane to be on close final in with a second or third plane to follow it directly on it's tail - all within 100'or so of one another - on the same runway. That's a recipe for a major air catastrophe yet it seems to happen at any busy airport. This is one thing that caused my friends to laugh, but as you suggest, it is probably that I do not understand how to set things up correctly. How do I prevent the program from doing this and lining planes up so they can arrive in a reasonable order with a bare minimum of go arounds?Reduce the AI traffic levels to no more than 20 landings per hour per runway. That's about all FS can handle properly with several runway exits and a full length parallel taxiway. If the airport is not setup that way - you need less AI landing.FS2004 is setup to handle up to five aircraft on approach for a runway at any one time.However, the desire for 'realism' in FS AI aircraft flight dynamics means that the aircraft designers want every AI aircraft to fly the final approach at different speeds.FS does a very good job of establishing the initial separation of the AI aircraft on the approach - about 5 nm apart. But when an A320 and a B737 fly their approach at 25 kts different speeds the separation is destroyed.As Jim noted about runways - most AI aircraft flight dynamics have the aircraft flying way too light. This makes for better visuals - but AI aircraft empty weight is the control mechanism. When a B767 weighs under 100,000 lbs - the ATC is not going to treat it as a heavy.I would strongly urge you to get the Microsoft FS2004 TrafficToolbox SDK and setup the Traffictoolbox.dll in your modules folder.The Map feature will show you a lot about how FS ATC is really working.

[Guest SparrowHawk7]

Thank you for your input, Reggie. I have printed it out and will try your suggestions. As you say, our current state of computer technology isn't able to handle every contingency that arises for ATC but there are some things that could definitely be done better as capabilities now stand. But that's one reason we continue to get further releases in this series.Thanks again,Ken

[cat 2]

Excellent informative post, Jim.Well done!Peter Sydney Australia

[GSalden 4,656]

Take a look at Proflight Emulator.http://www.aerosoft.com/cgi-local/re/ibosh...gi?showd,,10544It's all you will ever need.

[Mace 1,902]

>of experience, but I have never yet been ordered to hold at a>fix while traffic clears and a place is made in line for me. I>could perhaps request such a thing, but it should be ordered>by the tower as needed. Could you please tell me how to get>FS9 to order that when necessary or give me straight in>clearance when that is indicated?>Couple of points here:1. You CAN fly a SID and/or STAR or DP using FS9/FSX's ATC. Most people don't realize that, and don't know how to get FS ATC to do that.2. In answer to your question above, ATC won't "order" you to hold. It can't do that. However, if you have autopilot on, with the approach you want to fly programmed into the GPS, AND you come in too high, your aircraft will honor the hold and you'll start holding while descending.>How do I prevent the program>from doing this and lining planes up so they can arrive in a>reasonable order with a bare minimum of go arounds?>You will want the program called AISmooth.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2585 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2gb Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8 (1T), WD 150 gig 10000rpm Raptor, WD 250gig 7200rpm SATA2, Seagate 120gb 5400 rpm external HD, CoolerMaster Praetorian

[Guest SparrowHawk7]

Thanks Rhett. I haven't problems departing with a SID or DP ... just the STARs. I almost invariably fly the PMDG 737NG with the FMC handling the flight - I set up the FP based on charts so I have required altitudes programmed at all waypoints. I have to see if I can't get ATC to allow a instrument arrival in spite of the fact that it would be the pilot dictating to the controller.I haven't had a chance to try AISmooth yet, but I downloaded it and gave it a quick once over. I'll try it next time I get airborne. I'll also tweak the AI traffic a bit lower as was suggested earlier.Thanks again,Ken

[n4gix 4,947]

>As Mike (my retired controller friend) has often told me,>pilots like to think they are in charge but it is the orders>of the tower that they must obey whether they like them or>not. Well... it's not quite that simple and clear cut. In most cases, given no conflicts, that is indeed how the system works.However, the PIC (Pilot in Command) always has the ultimate decision power. NO ONE can "order" him to do anything that would - in his judgement - put the lives and safety of his aircraft at risk.In such an event, it is the PIC who holds the final trump card; let the FAA and other suits sort it out later.Ask your retired controller friend what happens if the a/c squawks 7500, 7600 or 7700... :)

[Guest Nickio20]

another alternative is VATSIM or IVAO. The biggest downside might be the fact that its not always available (staffing wise), but if you are flexible as to locations of your flight it shouldn't be a problem. It certainly is a step closer to realism for some...Nick M

[Guest drdaru1]

>I gotta agree that fsx atc is not much better than fs9 atc.>>But I also gotta mention-I get almost as much trouble from atc>in the real world if not more.>>1) Lately-almost 60% chance real world atc will get my call>sign wrong or my aircraft sign wrong...>>2) Good chance that my ifr plan will not be on file (thank to>the new faa system where briefers can be 500-1000 miles away>and not know anyting about your route or area when you file>your plan)>>3) Chance that atc will forget to hand you off to the next>controller>>4) Good chance that atc will vector you thru the ils or even>forget about you>>5) Chance on the hand off that next controller will have no>idea what you are doing>>>Just some off the top of my head-and I love atc and know they>are overworked and professionals etc.-and what the faa has>been doing to them lately is horrible.>>But lots of screw ups in the real world as a daily basis. I'd>like to see fs model more of this so I can be prepared...>>Imho-other than the over vectoring which I would love to see>fixed-the fs9/fsx atc is sometimes much more realiable :-lol>>>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg>Forum Moderator>http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/Which airspace do you fly in? There needs to be some sort of QC there, as this would be intolerable in a lot of areas of the country. I recently came off a stretch of flying 6 months of daily IFR cross country flights that took me across 4 different centers, and not one of those problems you listed came up. I'm not pro-Lockheed, and probably won't ever be, but as most pilots will say that FSS is the most common kink in the chain. I certainly am not asking for FSX to mimic our current FSS situation. That being said, there are some real life things (the things that pilots have been using in the ATC system for years and years) that I would like simulated.Comparing the real world ATC system to the system in FSX isn't comparing apples to apples, it's comparing apples to mold.

[Geofa 108]

If you look at my blog site you will see the entire United States-the last big trip 6500 miles-so I have been thru most centers.Just flying from Detroit to Cleveland last week-not only did they get the call sign wrong twice during the trip-(once scrambling the letters-the other times calling me a cessna when I am a Baron)-they forgot to hand me off to Cleveland center. When well over Lake Erie noticing we were getting close to the cleveland class b we asked if they had forgotten aboutus-there was an embarassed silence-then a hold on(while phone calls were probably made) and finally the handoff.All the things above I have experienced in all areas of the country.http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpgForum Moderatorhttp://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[brucek 38]

I got inadvertently vectored through the LOC on my IFR checkride. Luckily this wasn't the first time :). I have also been told by teh controlelr that I will be vectored through the LOC, whicg feels quite wierd.Like Geof, I have also had many callsign trnspositions, and also had ATC forget about me. When there's lots going on and you're not the primary concern, it's easy to drop through the cracks.Bruce.