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David Mills

Performance Bottleneck of 2023: Your Old TV

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39 minutes ago, virtuali said:

That would only be valid for live TV broadcast and/or PAL DVDs but, it has been many years that most of the TV sold in Europe are compatible with 60hz signals.

This happened already in the early 2000s, when European CRT TVs, when connected through Scart/RGB, could work in full color with US/JPN game consoles., and this was valid even for TV which weren't really fully multi-standard, thanks to the RGB Scart connection but, even back then, some TVs (usually from Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba) were truly multi-standard, so they could accept an NTSC signal even from Composite or S-Video.

When the HDMI came out, together with Blu-ray (BD are encoded in 24p, so they require either a TV that supports true 24p, or at least a TV that supports 60 hz so it could use 24->60 with pull-down), and then video streaming, there are virtually no TVs being made anymore that doesn't support 60hz.

I believe the "100 hz" indication in Sony TV can be a bit misleading, since it doesn't really refer to what input signals are accepted, but rather what kind of refresh rate the TV uses to add its own processing, since Sony refers to it as "Motionflow XR 800Hz (uncompressed 100Hz)", which is not very clear, but suggest it's something done at the last stage, to "smooth" motion, something you'd want to disable anyway in a flight sim, because it will surely add extra lag, it's like an additional "frame generation", made by TV, which I'm sure it's way slower than what the 4090 can do internally.

Thanks for explaining. When using monitors I can only choose between : 60- 59- 50- 30- 25 hertz . I use 60…

 

Edited by GSalden

13900 8 cores @ 5.5-5.8 GHz / 8 cores @ 4.3 GHz (hyperthreading on) - Asus ROG Strix Gaming D4 - GSkill Ripjaws 2x 16 Gb 4266 mhz @ 3200 mhz / cas 13 -  Inno3D RTX4090 X3 iCHILL 24 Gb - 1x SSD M2 2800/1800 2TB - 1x SSD M2 2800/1800 1Tb - Sata 600 SSD 500 Mb - Thermaltake Level 10 GT case - EKWB Extreme 240 liquid cooling set push/pull - 2x 55’ Sony 4K tv's as front view and right view.

13600  6 cores @ 5.1 GHz / 8 cores @ 4.0 GHz (hypterthreading on) - Asus ROG Strix Gaming D - GSkill Trident 4x Gb 3200 MHz cas 15 - Asus TUF RTX 4080 16 Gb  - 1x SSD M2 2800/1800 2TB - 2x  Sata 600 SSD 500 Mb - Corsair D4000 Airflow case - NXT Krajen Z63 AIO liquide cooling - 1x 65” Sony 4K tv as left view.

FOV : 190 degrees

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17 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

Pretty much in the same situation as you David, waiting on a monitor for my new system. Given my needs for accurate SRGB/ARGB color accuracy (i.e. for photography work) had to go with a 60hz monitor, and decided on 1440p given my desk view distance. Still need to set up the system but assuming the 13900K + 4090 should be able to maintain 60fps in most situations. Given that, my questions to you and others:

1) setting regular vsync in nvcp is better than in-game frame limiting I'm assuming?

2) is nvidia adaptive vsync better? Think this is better when fps drops below 60?

3) is nvidia fast sync better? good for latency I guess but also will overwork the cpu/gpu for 60hz 1440p wouldn't it

 

Hey Len,

Hope all is well !

What I found when using FG on my 120Hz 55 inch Sony X90K is that Vsync needs to be on in NVCP for the best result when using the VRR capability of this TV. By doing this NVIDIA low latency is automatically turned on in SIM when you select FG and the fps will be capped below the refresh rate of your display without the need for using anything else to cap fps, No Vsync in sim, for me I see my fps locked to 116 with just using Vsync in NVCP.

Bottom line for me when using Gsync the absolute best result is just Vsync on in NVCP

I haven't actually tried one of the standard HDMI ports @ 60Hz with DX11 and no FG. Maybe I will give that a try when I have some free time.

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Richard

i7-12700K | Noctua NH-D15S Black Version | MSI Pro Z690 - A | 32 GB DDR4 3600 | Gigabyte Gaming OC 4090 | 1TB WD Blue NMVe (MSFS 2020) | 500 GB WD Black Gen 4 NVMe | 4TB WD Black Conventional | Fractal Design Torrent Case | Seasonic 1000W Gold Plus PSU | Thrustmaster Boeing Yoke | Honeycomb Throttle | Airbus Side Stick | Virpil Rudder Pedals | Sony X90K 55 Inch TV |

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2 hours ago, RJC68 said:

Hey Len,

Hope all is well !

What I found when using FG on my 120Hz 55 inch Sony X90K is that Vsync needs to be on in NVCP for the best result when using the VRR capability of this TV. By doing this NVIDIA low latency is automatically turned on in SIM when you select FG and the fps will be capped below the refresh rate of your display without the need for using anything else to cap fps, No Vsync in sim, for me I see my fps locked to 116 with just using Vsync in NVCP.

Bottom line for me when using Gsync the absolute best result is just Vsync on in NVCP

I haven't actually tried one of the standard HDMI ports @ 60Hz with DX11 and no FG. Maybe I will give that a try when I have some free time.

You have a very good TV for gaming. 


13900 8 cores @ 5.5-5.8 GHz / 8 cores @ 4.3 GHz (hyperthreading on) - Asus ROG Strix Gaming D4 - GSkill Ripjaws 2x 16 Gb 4266 mhz @ 3200 mhz / cas 13 -  Inno3D RTX4090 X3 iCHILL 24 Gb - 1x SSD M2 2800/1800 2TB - 1x SSD M2 2800/1800 1Tb - Sata 600 SSD 500 Mb - Thermaltake Level 10 GT case - EKWB Extreme 240 liquid cooling set push/pull - 2x 55’ Sony 4K tv's as front view and right view.

13600  6 cores @ 5.1 GHz / 8 cores @ 4.0 GHz (hypterthreading on) - Asus ROG Strix Gaming D - GSkill Trident 4x Gb 3200 MHz cas 15 - Asus TUF RTX 4080 16 Gb  - 1x SSD M2 2800/1800 2TB - 2x  Sata 600 SSD 500 Mb - Corsair D4000 Airflow case - NXT Krajen Z63 AIO liquide cooling - 1x 65” Sony 4K tv as left view.

FOV : 190 degrees

My flightsim vids :  https://www.youtube.com/user/fswidesim/videos?shelf_id=0&sort=dd&view=0

 

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7 minutes ago, GSalden said:

You have a very good TV for gaming. 

Thank you Gerard,

I already have a 65 inch X90J as my main TV and the picture and motion handling are fantastic. I came from a 43 inch TCL and I thought the 55 inch would be too big but now I am used too it I love it. The sim looks spectacular and I get barely if any Gsync flickering.


 

Richard

i7-12700K | Noctua NH-D15S Black Version | MSI Pro Z690 - A | 32 GB DDR4 3600 | Gigabyte Gaming OC 4090 | 1TB WD Blue NMVe (MSFS 2020) | 500 GB WD Black Gen 4 NVMe | 4TB WD Black Conventional | Fractal Design Torrent Case | Seasonic 1000W Gold Plus PSU | Thrustmaster Boeing Yoke | Honeycomb Throttle | Airbus Side Stick | Virpil Rudder Pedals | Sony X90K 55 Inch TV |

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14 hours ago, virtuali said:

something you'd want to disable anyway in a flight sim, because it will surely add extra lag, it's like an additional "frame generation", made by TV, which I'm sure it's way slower than what the 4090 can do internally

That may be so but I have to disagree that this feature should be disabled. I use it on my Samsung UN55NU6900 and it does in fact double the frame rate but I notice no lag at all in the course of flying an aircraft in Fight Sim. pitch up, pitch down or bank left, bank right I am completely oblivious of any lag. Now I know it may be there but I'd take a guess that at 30hz it only slightly more than 1/30th of a second or at 24hz, 1/24th of a second. Even in CodeMasters F1 I can happily drive around at 50hz for 100fps on screen and experience no lag at all. I'm not saying it isn't there but I don't notice it and it doesn't effect my game play. One the other hand the doubling of the frame rate greatly improves my gaming experience.

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It's like saying my car doesn't run smoothly at 100 mph.  What do I need to do?

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On 7/6/2023 at 8:19 PM, sidfadc said:

Interesting topic because I just dropped some serious cash on a 7800X3D + 4090.  The biggest headache was buying the Monitor!  I went for the Gigabyte M28U 144hz "GSync Compatible".  Yea I know before someone jumps in this is terrible because I should have bought a GSYNC Ultimate 4k monitor..........but during my research these are a) few and far between b) ridiculously priced!

So I'm going to take my chances with my *cough cough* budget £600 monitor!!!

 

Should have got a standard g-sync monitor and not a compatible one. They ain’t that high in price and are certainly cheaper than ultimate, plus they have the g-sync hardware module in them. 

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1 hour ago, Roy Warren said:

It's like saying my car doesn't run smoothly at 100 mph.  What do I need to do?

Check the tracking, alignment, wheels and tyres. 

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7 hours ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

Should have got a standard g-sync monitor and not a compatible one. They ain’t that high in price and are certainly cheaper than ultimate, plus they have the g-sync hardware module in them. 

Yea I know, hence what I said but my research showed a lot of monitors advertised as standard gsync where in fact, after a deep dive into the specs actually "GSync compatible".  The Gsync ultimate monitors are high in price.


Thomas Derbyshire

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On 7/8/2023 at 4:59 AM, FBW737 said:

That may be so but I have to disagree that this feature should be disabled.

Do you have a 4000-series GPU ? In that case, IF you use Frame Generation from the video card, you'll want to disable Motion smoothness in the TV, because they are doing essentially the same thing, so you are introducing (whatever small and not entirely noticeable) an extra lag for no reason, but the video card has extra features (Reflex + Boost) that are designed to minimize the lag, which MSFS supports.

Obviously, if you are not using a 4000-series GPU, or you are not using frame generation, for whatever reason (game not supporting it, DX12 woes, etc.), by all means use the motion smoothness on the TV, more so if you don't notice lag.

TV-introduced lag will be difficult to notice on a slower paced game like MSFS, because no aircraft (or car) responds to controls immediately anyway, you might only be able to notice it in fast fps shooters, especially when you shoot something, you might have some lag from the time you press the button, to when you hear the sound. I'm sure it varies from TV to TV, they surely don't have the same processing method or power but, on my oled LG, which is somewhat older model from 2017 (still exceptionally good quality), when motion smoothness is enabled, I can feel that disconnection between pressing a button and hearing the sound, in fps shooters, and it goes away when disabling it. In MSFS you really can't notice it, but fact you can't notice it, doesn't mean is not there but of course, if you don't have a 4000-series card, the smoothness increase would be better than any minor lag you won't really notice in MSFS.

That's what I meant: if you DO have a 4000-series card, and you DO use frame generation, it's best to turn any motion smoothness in the TV off.

Edited by virtuali
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My old TV is an 48" LG CX OLED.  It's "gsync compatible",   "AMD Freesync" compatible,  120hz,  1ms response time.     (It's Gsync range is 40 to 120hz,  but I have a 4090 and never go below the lower limit)

I bought it right before cv19 / FS20 dropped,  it's got 10531 hours of uptime on it according to the support menu.

It's around 4 years old and still receives regular firmware updates from LG,  they sent me one last week.  No burn in.

Would highly recommend LG.   I suggest that anyone looking for a new display should check out https://www.rtings.com/tv

 

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3 hours ago, virtuali said:

Do you have a 4000-series GPU ?

Well no. I have a 3090. I agree the a 4090 makes TV frame interpolation redundant since the GPU takes care of it. But for anyone using any other card, Samsung TVs or at least the model I have will double the FPS it receives from the GPU. So If I'm tuned for 24hz, I'll get 48fps on screen. For anyone with older hardware and on a budget this is fantastic since it will work just as well with a 980ti for example and Samsung 4KTV's are ubiquitous, cheap and even easy to find used. I'm not a first person shooter player anymore but I know that lag is a common complaint and there is a need for very high frame rates in that genre so I can see that its not going to cut it there. But I am now curious so I'll give it a go and see how bad it is.😁

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