A2A Comanche goes boing-boing-boing

[sd_flyer 5,660]

7 minutes ago, Jazz said:

Yes, the flaps are still down until he is firmly on the runway when he then raises them to to drop the remaining lift and give maximum traction to the wheels.

You misunderstood.

Thank you that is exactly was my point above!

[turnandbank 233]

2 hours ago, diajohn said:

Is it just me or does the Comanche landing feel like you are on a trampoline?  My speed is good, attitude is good, but the darn thing loves to bounce.  What are your secrets or do you happily bounce it in?

 

 

It isn't just you. When I first got the Comanche, I was having similar issues when landing even though the rest of the flight model felt convincing. I haven't flown in recent years, but I am a RW PPL with time on the Cessna 150 and 172, Grumman AA5 Traveller, Piper PA140 and Piper Warrior. No RW Comanche time though. 

I have no issues with the landing flare on other payware aircraft, but I was having difficulty with my newly purchased Comanche.

In particular I find that the A2A Comanche has unusualy high elevator authority in the flare compared to both my RW and simulator experience in other GA aircraft. I mitigated this by reducing the elevator sensitivity in the tablet to the minimum and focusing on more subtle inputs on the stick during the flare to let the energy bleed off without ballooning. Most of my landings are now fine, but it did take some time getting used to the high amount of elevator sensitivity and authority during this phase of flight.

I am sure that my aging controllers, CH Pro joystick and Pedals are part of the problem.

[ryanbatc 12,016]

1 hour ago, Los said:

 

Flaps should not be touched until clear of the runway.

I dont agree at all!  Flaps retracted during rollout is necessary for maximum braking action.

[Jazz 835]

1 minute ago, turnandbank said:

It isn't just you. When I first got the Comanche, I was having similar issues when landing even though the rest of the flight model felt convincing. I haven't flown in recent years, but I am a RW PPL with time on the Cessna 150 and 172, Grumman AA5 Traveller, Piper PA140 and Piper Warrior. No RW Comanche time though. 

I have no issues with the landing flare on other payware aircraft, but I was having difficulty with my newly purchased Comanche.

In particular I find that the A2A Comanche has unusualy high elevator authority in the flare compared to both my RW and simulator experience in other GA aircraft. I mitigated this by reducing the elevator sensitivity in the tablet to the minimum and focusing on more subtle inputs on the stick during the flare to let the energy bleed off without ballooning. Most of my landings are now fine, but it did take some time getting used to the high amount of elevator sensitivity and authority during this phase of flight.

I am sure that my aging controllers, CH Pro joystick and Pedals are part of the problem.

The elevator sensitivity in the tablet does nothing at landing speed. It adjusts sensitivity at high speed from what I understand. If you want to adjust the sensitivity of the elevator then you need to do it in the sim itself. I have to do this because the elevator travel on my honeycomb yoke is short making any aircraft twitchy in pitch.

There is a problem with the sensitivity setting in MSFS though, in that it isn't really a sensitivity setting. It messes with the lineartiy of the curve which is rubbish because it makes it less sensitive at first and then way more sensitive as you move through the travel.

The correct way, or rather, the only way, is to use "extremity deadzone". This means you lose some travel in the sim at the end of the movement but the control still stays linear. If you over do this you will not have enough elevator authority but when you get it right you have plenty and good control of the pitch.

[snglecoil 1,785]

3 minutes ago, ryanbatc said:

I dont agree at all!  Flaps retracted during rollout is necessary for maximum braking action.

You mean rental braking action 😂

[Ron Lefebvre 32]

I have yet to land it properly. I hit the pavement hard and also usually bounce once.

or it just floats down the runway.

I just cant seem to figure out how close it is to the ground visually.

I think my problem is reverse though. I think I am coming in to slow, not to fast.

Love the plane though.

Will figure it out eventually

 

Ron

[ryanbatc 12,016]

24 minutes ago, snglecoil said:

You mean rental braking action 😂

Haha sure....but when you need you need it.  Even with sustained braking flaps up as you know is the most effective.

[Ixoye 1,614]

2 hours ago, Rimshot said:

Out of curiousity, do you fly for real? 

 

No I don't, I saw this video and I thought Scott retract the flaps just before the wheels touching the runway, so I try it, and it worked well with "Boom and Bang" 😄 but I normally land it proper according to what you all suggest and have no problem with it.

Edited August 16 by Ixoye

[FBW737 366]

Hold off, Hold off, hold off and hold off!😁

[vgbaron 3,391]

I've had some time in a Comanche irl and never did I raise flaps during flare only after touchdown for max braking as others have stated. Actually, I bounced a few landings in the A2A initially because I'd gotten into some bad habits flying some of the less accurate planes in the sim. Had to concentrate a bit more on speed and attitude.  Now, no thumping.

[diajohn 148]

I picked up a glimmer of the solution in these topic posts..  It may be in my elevator settings on the Honeycomb Alpha combined with the Bravo.    My comfort level with the elevator pitch is low right now with roughly 30 landings. Something feels wrong in all phases of flight as I think it through.  Aileron and rudder seem good.  

Must be that reaching above my head. 😄😄

 

[UrgentSiesta 643]

Scott from A2A posts great videos about his addons. 
 

he covers a bunch of Comanche stuff in this one: 

and has a few others since  

i truly recommend you even take the time to watch the old ones for P3D, too,as many of the concepts and guidance still apply.

Scott is one of those rare guys who can reall get the info across and you end up just wanting to go fly after his vids  

 

[Stearmandriver 1,848]

6 hours ago, ryanbatc said:

I dont agree at all!  Flaps retracted during rollout is necessary for maximum braking action.

Necessary?  Naw.  Marginally helpful, tops.  In a light plane, air run is far more important than ground decel to a short field landing.  The A2A Commanche touches down in a full stall at around 46mph.  At that speed, there isn't a runway in existence you should need aggressive braking to stop on.  If you do, it's because you mishandled energy and / or missed your touchdown point.  When you can reliably touch down in a full stall on the numbers, brakes are almost superfluous.

I'm with @sd_flyer... touching things on the rollout in a retractable gear plane is pretty universally considered a bad idea.  If you needed that extra 30ft of stopping distance it might buy you, you already should have gone around long beforehand.

Edited August 16 by Stearmandriver

[Stearmandriver 1,848]

9 hours ago, diajohn said:

Is it just me or does the Comanche landing feel like you are on a trampoline?  My speed is good, attitude is good, but the darn thing loves to bounce.  What are your secrets or do you happily bounce it in?

 

 

It's all about touchdown speed.  I recommend a stable 80mph instead of 90mph on approach, but either way the key to a nice landing is to not let it touch down until you're seeing the stall light on the panel blinking at you.  This is accurate for light GA planes... They need to be done flying on touchdown, or a bounce is expected.

If you're letting the plane touch down and you haven't seen the stall light, you're too fast.

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,789]

33 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

It's all about touchdown speed.  I recommend a stable 80mph instead of 90mph on approach,

This ... 

Maybe 90 mph if fully loaded with lots of runway to play with, but otherwise a big no.  I have no idea where people are getting 90 mph as the standard approach speed, as by all accounts 90 is way to high.

For your typical minimum passengers 50% fuel flight on a shorter back country strip an 80 mph approach with 70 mph over the fence about to flare is much closer to where you should be.

Note that 82 mph is the POH recommendation for short final in landing configuration (which exactly matches the FAA recommendation for GA of 1.3 x stall).

Here is AOPA on the Comanche 250 :

Quote

 

https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/aircraft-fact-sheets/piper-comanche

 

 It's important to remember that Comanches are slippery. If you're accustomed to Cessna singles, you'll be sure to notice that speed reductions will take some time and require some advance planning. Of course, this makes itself most evident in the landing phase. The 250's pilot's operating handbook recommends 82 mph/71 kt as a final approach speed, but if you've been doing 90 kt on base you'll be busy lowering flaps, S-turning, or using other techniques to both go down and slow down safely.

Most of the grumbling you hear about Comanches has to do with landings. Close to the runway, those laminar-flow wings ride deep in ground effect. If you're too fast, the airplane can float and float while you bleed off airspeed. Impatient pilots who try to force the airplane onto the runway at too high an airspeed can easily find themselves rewarded with wheelbarrowing on the nosewheel. The airplane has a large nosewheel (actually, it's the same size as the main gear) and, together with the main gears' stubby struts, the landing-gear geometry lends itself to nosewheel-first arrivals, premature liftoffs, and wheelbarrowing. The moral: Make sure you're at the proper airspeed and attitude the moment you touch down. Comanches can be cruel to the sloppy

 

 

TLDR:  Not an aircraft to try and force onto the runway, it will bounce or wheelbarrow, if you do come in too hot go around.

 

Edited August 16 by Glenn Fitzpatrick