Thinking of upgrading to Vista? Read this...

[aentwis 61]

Thank you very much Key is soaked (It would be really nice if you could sign off with your real name though) for an in-depth and very informative post... this is meant in ernest and is not in any way sarcastic.I work in the IT branch myself...I think the device issue is VERY important. It is one of the main points here... any one of the elements of a PC is a device, the HDD, CD/DVD reader/writer, processor, chipset, sound card, graphics adapter, memory...From the MS EULA: "INSTALLATION AND USE RIGHTS. Before you use the software under a license, you must assign that license to one device (physical hardware system). That device is the

[scott967 62]

If I understand Key is soaked's post, it is that the changes in the referenced Vista EULA are intended as a way of implementing an unwritten policy of how the Win XP EULA was interpreted in terms of re-activation on a modified hardware system (and multi-processor -- I wonder what K-is-S' take on the AMD quad-quad system is in this context?). Since WGA notification, Win XP has had a means of communicating activation status periodically back to MS. The privacy concerns are no different from those expressed when XP activation was first revealed, though the increased frequency might be an issue.Of interest was a point made by PCMag columnist Dvorak, who points out that if Vista activation is hacked so that it indicates a license violation back to MS, it could result in systems being placed in "pirate mode" with no direct way to clean the bad activation code without a fresh OS install. I have seen reports that "clarifications" of the EULA will be forthcoming from MS. I suspect that the Vista activation disablement is treated under legal doctrine of "self-help". I know there have been legal cases involving software licenses that had time expiration provisions and the "bombs" that were in the code in case of expiration. Without doing some web searching, I can't recall what the outcome of those cases were in terms of "self-help". My understanding is that in most states of the US, the sale of retail (shrinkwrap) software/software license is treated as a "sale of goods" under the UCC Article 2. At one time there was a push by the software industry to get states to accept a new concept of software licensing (more akin to renting) under a proposed Article 2b. This failed and the effort was continued as the "Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act". This proposed law was viewed by many consumer groups as extremely adverse to software purchasers and adoption has been slow in the states. (See eff.org for the history on this. Naturally, this is all in the context of US law. I have no idea how other jurisdictions treat activation and license provisions.)I am also concerned about FSX. I would like to try it in Vista and Win XP on the same hardware, but I can't get an answer if that would use up my 2 activations. My plan right now is to run it in 30 min trial mode initially.scott s..

[Guest Kev_Is_Soaked]

Kev is my real name btw :)To address the AMD Quad-Quad setup, I will reinterate something I barely touched on before. When it comes to corporate licensing for SQL Server and Windows Advanced Server, the licenses explicitly define how many physical processors that software can run on. Typically, this strategy never did target Dual-Core processors, as the 'processor' was defined as a physical unit. Now, with Windows Vista, a large questionmark hangs over whether Microsoft are now going to change their strategy to include Dual-Core as being real multiple processors.I am afraid that Microsoft are getting too big for their boots, and that it is seemingly looming ahead of us now that they could easily change this "processor" definition to include Dual-Core (or more). This means that to run Vista on your home built Quad processor system you will need to purchase additional licenses?Again, it is all pure speculation based on the actual EULA that Microsoft had released. Are we reading into it too much? Who knows, all that I do know is that MS need to clarify all of this and allow us people to get to grips with what they expect of us Users.From what I can speculate based on what I have though, it certainly looks as if Microsoft is trying to maximize profits and force upon Windows Users, a very unfair world. All of this brought down on us simply because they found a way to blame Piracy as a means to implement hardware checking.I've got news for Microsoft though. I know for a fact that consumers will not tolerate this move once they are educated about what this licensing model really means. Retail outlets like Best-Buy will suffer because no one will want to buy parts to upgrade anymore, ATI and NVidia will have mainly their lower end equipment sold as most gamers and enthusiasts will stop buying the good stuff when it incorporates a $400 additional licence charge on top of the upgrade price on the hardware.Schools and Libraries will cease to run their PC's, as these machines are prone to abuse and constant repair/rebuilds. Game developers will slow down innovation due to the fact that people are hanging on to their older equipment longer than they used to.The 'used' PC market will surely dwindle to extinction over the years, as older operating systems will be unsupported and thus, can't be activated (XP). Small retailers can't create low-end 'whitebox' models for $400 anymore, because the OS now doubles that base price; meaning Average Joe can't go buy himself a cheap computer to keep in touch with friends or work at home. Computer purchases will eventually come down to having money, and computing in general, will jump back to where it was 20 years ago when only the well off could have them.... the only difference this time around, is that those well off people will still be smart enough not to tinker with the machine or upgrade it regularly.... meaning the very same type of person that Bill Gates was back then (tinkerer/hobbist) is now locked out of the game.Of course... we all have a choice. We could go install Linux or buy a Mac. But then how would I do my day job? I rely on Microsoft Technologies, I support clients in need of help running Microsoft technology. When I went to school to learn the tools of the trade, I had a choice..... right now, that I'm 33 years old and dedicated to supporting Microsoft Technology after many years training, I'd say that my livelyhood is no longer a choice, and that Microsoft are putting ME in a position that appauls me to no end.Basically, Microsoft have changed the "Software Model". No longer is software something that you purchase and use while never actually owning it, now you RENT the software usage from them. Selling software has become a Service now according to any government who allows Microsoft to get away with this.BTW: The reason I think that this is all about money and not about piracy, is because the current Windows Activation system is poorly designed as a protection system and well designed to maximise rejections of service. I know for a fact that a better system of protection is more easily attainable without resorting to hardware checks, yet Microsoft insist that theirs is the only way..... yeah, only way they can maximize profits maybe, but not the only way to secure their software against piracy.

[Guest Charlie]

It

[Guest Kev_Is_Soaked]

I wish I could say I'm with you on that one, unfortunetely I don't have a choice on which OS I use :(I need to keep myself up to speed on the technologies I support in business, which unfortunetely has always been Microsoft based :(I don't have a choice, except to abandon my profession and go back to school for something else.... and I am not about to let a software giant force something like that upon me.

[Guest Charlie]

Kev, there are always choices.I

[Guest Kev_Is_Soaked]

XP activation never forced you to repurchase the software after two hardware changes though, in my opinion, this Vista licensing is a whole lot darker a cloud than anything else MS have ever tried.I've already started the ball rolling on other things, mostly, generating awareness of the impact the new licensing will have on just about anyone who uses a Microsoft powered machine.My main objective, is to show that Windows Activation is designed to be faulty to ensure revenue, and that there are alternatives to using a system which monitors users hardware. It's just getting started though, and mostly, the implementation of such a good antipiracy platform is mainly in my head. I've been typing and typing and designing my site around it, so that I can soon get something off the ground to fight back.

[Guest Kev_Is_Soaked]

UPDATE:Microsoft HAVE clarified the EULA.Aparently, the response to people asking MS to clarify whether Vista will in fact be limited to only one transfer, is them taking an absolute cheap-shot at the very people who make them as large as they are.Their response, is that past EULA's NEVER explicitly allowed for transfer of the OS to many devices over time, and that the only time it was noted (WinXP EULA) was there because it was loosely defined to make sure that people with hardware failures realised they weren't shut out. Their response basically didn't verify that we are reading the new EULA correctly or not, it just tries to dispel belief that past EULA's allowed multiple transfers even though most past EULA's have never explicitly mentioned this at all.What's more, their response marginalises us gamers. Aparently, Enthusiasts, gamers and tinkers account of about 2% of the worlds Windows users. I find their math to be unbelievable inaccurate. They have characterised this 'small' group and lowered our worth to next to nothing.It's a crying shame, that this so called 'small' group of enthusiasts are the ones two provide feedback on Vista Betas, were the ones driving hi-tech innovation, were the ones throwing hard earned dollars at companies for the latest gear on a regular basis.... now Microsoft wants to either shut us out or grab out cash.Their response by the way, specifically mentiones that "this small group of Windows users will most certainly be adversely affected by the new license model." They are screwing us over.... and they just admitted knowing it.They have released more info on Vista's Activation policy though. I am glad to hear that it is a little more relaxed than Windows XP, and that it is possibly going to be limited to the mainboard and hard disk. However it annoys me still that they actually mention that we will be "adversly affected" by the change.

[scott967 62]

Thanks, KevI can see maybe for discounted preloads on Dells, for instance, that the OS might be "part of" the hardware, but for the retail shrinkwrap OS, you should be able to use that on any machine, or transfer to 3rd party as desired. Same for FSX.scott s..

[mgh 89]

Have you a link to this announcement?

[Guest Charlie]

>XP activation never forced you to repurchase the software>after two hardware changes though, in my opinion, this Vista>licensing is a whole lot darker a cloud than anything else MS>have ever tried.>>I've already started the ball rolling on other things, mostly,>generating awareness of the impact the new licensing will have>on just about anyone who uses a Microsoft powered machine.>>My main objective, is to show that Windows Activation is>designed to be faulty to ensure revenue, and that there are>alternatives to using a system which monitors users hardware. >It's just getting started though, and mostly, the>implementation of such a good antipiracy platform is mainly in>my head. I've been typing and typing and designing my site>around it, so that I can soon get something off the ground to>fight back.Agreed, Vista is a much darker cloud. But I think XP activation was a test and a conditioning step and it put the concept out there in the full light of day. It is Big Brother - it is ugly and it is wrong, so I drew the line right there. But most didn

[Guest bkemp1]

Yeh, I reitterate, anyone produced a Linux version of FS anything yet? Or maybe there are no Linux users capable of creating one. ;-)Microsoft should have been split up years ago but for one big mouthed judge. Now the US government is either unable or uwilling to do anything about them. Microsoft are a legally declared monopoly and the US antitrust laws were supposed to prevent monopolies. So much for the US courts' ability to uphold the law!At least the EU has more guts; so much so that the US DOJ tried to get them to go easy for fear that they may destroy Microsoft!Bernie

[Guest Kingair315]

>I buy a car.>The manufacturer issues two keys for the vehicle.>Those keys are the only way I can start the car.>If I loose both, I am out of luck until I replace one or both>of those keys.>$15 - $20 dollars to do so? Think again; the new "secure" keys>with embedded chips cost anywhere from $250 - $350 each.Ive never paid more than a dollar or two at Wal-mart to get a replacement key. Also, have keys made at AAA free for a spare to carry in my wallet. They are not as good, only plastic, but they do open the doors and start the Car or Motorhome whenever needed. If you also know a locksmith you can have "secure" keys made much cheaper or better yet, have the locks replaced for much less than the cost of such keys.And Yes, can have as _many_ keys made as I desire for as long as I want to own the vehicle.

[Guest Kingair315]

> I see lawsuits in their future with regards to Vista, if they deny reactivating someones OS. Or FSX for that matter.After getting slapped on the hand in the monopoly case, threats of lawsuits may not bother them. Especially with the _billions_ they have available to fight them.BUT, wonder what a million or so small claims court awards would do. It is relatively inexpensive to file a case in small claims court. If you have a valid case, the judges are very strongly in favor of the little guy. In a case which I filed, someone had sued me unjustly, I filed a counter suit for $500, and proved my case. The judge ruled in my favor and awarded me an additional $2500 in punitive damages. We can do something about it, if it proves to be damaging to many. We can circulate the word about filing a case in small claims court. In many cases large companies will just settle or pay instead of fighting it. But thousands of cases could get their attention and mean a change in policy. As lack of an operating system could make the COMPUTER unusable, damages could possibly include the entire cost of the computer.

[Guest Kingair315]

>XP activation never forced you to repurchase the software>after two hardware changes though, in my opinion, this Vista>licensing is a whole lot darker a cloud than anything else MS>have ever tried.>But it has locked me out of making any upgrades to XP on two computers. Telling me to call MS does not help, I've already sat online with them long enough so our cellphone battery went dead twice, without getting the help needed. We are not in the group which can afford to upgrade to a a new computer every two years. Though Ive been using computers since 1976, since retiring in 1995, have been using several systems for over 10 years. Just upgrading them myself from time to time. Changing floppy and hard drives, motherboards, power supplies, etc... On both systems I began with 256 memory, upgraded to 512, then to a gig. Changed hard drives twice going to 80gig, then 120gig, now added 300 gig USB drives. So have no idea what changes violated my XP. Having purchased -legal- copies of XP to upgrade two desktops to XP from W98. Both now show messages each time they are booted, that say they are pirated or illegal software, and we must pay for new software. The original XP was purchased for use on a Dell computers now MS is telling me the Dell XP is a pirated copy. Thus we can't upgrade to fixes which _prevent_ the access by hackers etc... As they are way our of warranty, Dell is not interested in helping.Now FINALLY, as we moved into a Motorhome fulltime, bought a Toshiba Laptop, to get a legal copy again, and use WIFI to access the Internet. Since then have switched from 256, to 512, and now a gig of memory in my laptop. As I now use the USB HD's a 120gig and 300gig on the Lapgop have now discontinued all updates to XP as Im afraid it will violate my XP software and tell me Toshiba sold me a pirated version. Then wont allow me to use the Internet.If this happens in XP, which I never knew would be violated due to changes, can only image how bad things could get with VISTA.