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Andrew2448

PMDG Status Update 02SEP23

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Its all about the console folks its all about the CONSOLE.. All those other developers with those fancy  EFB's won't work on a Console. Facts. PMDG chose to sell to Marketplace and XBOX and that's where they are stuck at as far as the EFB and communication, If it were not for that they would probably have the 747 or at least the 777 lineup in the sim by now with the EFB. Sorry but the truth hurts sometimes. They are doing  or at least trying to do something never done before. Got to get that $$$ and nothing is wrong with that.

Edited by JBDB-MD80
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4 minutes ago, JBDB-MD80 said:

Its all about the console folks its all about the CONSOLE.. All those other developers with those fancy  EFB's won't work on a Console. Facts. PMDG chose to sell to Marketplace and XBOX and that's where they are stuck at as far as the EFB and communication, If it were not for that they would probably have the 747 lineup in the sim by now with the EFB. Sorry but the truth hurts sometimes. They are doing  or at least trying to do something never done before.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Getting the EFB to work in a console environment must be a nightmare. I was always quite surprised they went down the console route with 737. But I guess there's money to be made there so they went with it even if it stalled the development cycle somewhat. It will be interesting to see what they do with the 747 and 777 on console as they are considerably more complex than the 737 in terms of systems.

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Let's face it, I don't blame PMDG for the delays they have.  It does seem, on the surface, that they have more trouble getting projects out on a decent time frame, but they fan the flames by offering updates that aren't updates all the time.  How many times has the EFB been mentioned?  It's been a year or more since they released the 737!  We have zero screenshots of such item.   Anyone who follows these things knows that a screenshot helps a million to nonbelievers.  Even when something like the Level-D 757 had screenshots and was never released.  The 737 is a beautiful plane, and PMDG have made many aspects of it look great in the sim.  However, I still suffer twitchy LNAV turns and find some things to be "off" in terms of how the plane acts.  When I watch the Fenix A320 bank on AP I feel as though I'm in a real large jet.  The PMDG rolls very strange.  The ground handling in the 737 is still a big bizarre too, whereas other add-ons have moderated this a bit. 

That being said, I do hope we actually get a decent EFB with the features we need for performance calculations and other items users are expecting.  I also hope they would refine some of the AP behavior and overall FDE.


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How are people angry about all the things missing in this EFB when it hasn't been released yet? Did someone get their hands on a beta version?

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8 hours ago, JBDB-MD80 said:

Its all about the console folks its all about the CONSOLE.. All those other developers with those fancy  EFB's won't work on a Console. Facts. PMDG chose to sell to Marketplace and XBOX and that's where they are stuck at as far as the EFB and communication, If it were not for that they would probably have the 747 or at least the 777 lineup in the sim by now with the EFB. Sorry but the truth hurts sometimes. They are doing  or at least trying to do something never done before. Got to get that $$$ and nothing is wrong with that.

Do people pretend PMDG is the only dev with a console release? IniBuilds and JustFlight are two high fidelity devs with JS EFBs and WASM systems modules
 

PMDG’s problems have nothing to do with being on console. Time and time again it has been said to be a serialisation/deserialisation problem between JS and WASM modules. SU13’s communication bus has just basically resolved this issue as you can now pass actual data structures between JS and WASM instead of communicating data through lvar numbers

Edited by Lucky38i
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21 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

It wasn’t “unnecessary” and certainly not “self-inflicted” by PMDG.

Full TCP/IP support in WASM was up to Asobo to add to the SDK, and they only just now (finally) did so in SU 13. If PMDG had made no effort to develop an alternate way to implement TCP/IP, (by serializing data between JavaScript and C++), they could not have even started development and testing of the Simbrief and Navigraph charts portion of the EFB until now. 

Since Asobo was (apparently) unable or unwilling to make a firm commitment to exactly when full WASM C++ support would finally arrive, PMDG had no choice but to expend a lot of effort and man-hours creating a custom in-house way to get TCP/IP data into C++ via JavaScript. 

Passing data structures between JavaScript and C++ is not a trivial or simple thing to do. The two languages internally handle strings (text data) and numeric variables very differently. They evidently had it working well. Was it “wasted” effort?

Well - what if Asobo had not delivered TCP/IP in WASM (finally) with SU13? At least (in that case) PMDG had an alternate way to do it fully tested and ready to go. They have been beta testing the EFB with the alternate JS/WASM interface for quite some time.

From a developers’ perspective, being able to implement TCP/IP natively in C++ is far preferable. It eliminates a lot of overhead and potential for data to be mangled or corrupted.

If PMDG had implemented their EFB in an external program (as Fenix does), they could have released it months ago - but that would have eliminated any possibility of having an EFB in the XBox version of the 737.

See, that‘s what I mean with „self-inflicted“: They wanted to release for XBOX. That decision, back in 2020 I suppose, is the origin of the whole mess and likely will be the cause for further problems down the road.

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31 minutes ago, Fiorentoni said:

back in 2020 I suppose, is the origin of the whole mess and likely will be the cause for further problems down the road.

Based on what..?

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17 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

Since the beginning of the EFB project, RSR has stated on more than one occasion that a significant challenge they faced was getting text data from the JS side to the WASM side, which is why they had to “hand roll” their own custom JS-to-WASM interface.

Yes, I said this twice. They had to create a serialiser.

17 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

Now, if that could have been easily accomplished using JSON as an intermediary, and they did not avail themselves of that option, then shame on them.

That wasn't possible until SU13, I said this in my original post and reaffirmed it in my reply to you. Beforehand you needed to create a serialiser.

 

17 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

It certainly seems to me that he is “raving” specifically about the added WASM TCP/IP functionality that is coming with SU13. Evidently whatever WASM TCP/IP support that was added in SU11 was not sufficient for their needs.

I'm not going to assume, but either, Rob wasn't aware of the Network API in SU11 (highly highly doubtful), He's miswording his post to better describe the communications API, or not telling the full story. The Network API hasn't been changed in SU13. I stress, how WASM makes HTTP calls, hasn't changed in SU13. WASM however, does now have the communications API. PMDG now no longer, need to use their in-house serialiser, as Rob described in his post.

 

17 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

There was no other reason to use JS for any part of the EFB.

There's pretty good reasons to use JS to develop the EFB. Multi-language projects can be beneficial depending on the use case.

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2 hours ago, Fiorentoni said:

See, that‘s what I mean with „self-inflicted“: They wanted to release for XBOX. That decision, back in 2020 I suppose, is the origin of the whole mess and likely will be the cause for further problems down the road.

It depends on how much additional revenue releasing the product on XBox brings in. If it is a substantial amount, they would be foolish to not do it, even if it complicates the development process.

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Jim Barrett

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15 hours ago, F737MAX said:

Interesting to see who's 'running defense' for a developer that has lost its mojo.

The missing piece is actually many missing pieces:

I don't think you understood my post. When I'm saying missing pieces I'm not talking about things that may be missing from PMDG addons compared to other dev's addons. I'm specifically talking about the missing piece in the simulator that PMDG had to find a way around to create an EFB that people want, which is now being added by Asobo.

On a different note, no one is "running defence" for PMDG (and no one here is a "cringey gatekeeper"...). People criticize the culture in the PMDG forums while giving the same hostile replies here when someone posts something slightly in favor of them.

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I am amazed at the few “non-developers” of complex aircraft for MSFS find it so easy to debate and “correct” active developers of aircraft, like FBW.

So amazing to have such “non-insider insight”

-B

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8 minutes ago, btacon said:

I am amazed at the few “non-developers” of complex aircraft for MSFS find it so easy to debate and “correct” active developers of aircraft, like FBW.

So amazing to have such “non-insider insight”

-B

Yeah, you would  think with all the "experts on this forum", that Boeing, Airbus, Cessna, etc.  would be posting help wanted ads here..😉

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23 hours ago, F737MAX said:

Interesting to see who's 'running defense' for a developer that has lost its mojo.

The missing piece is actually many missing pieces:

  • An EFB that can perform takeoff/landing performance calculations (TORA, TODA, ASDA and LDA), flight status, planned route information, METAR info, active checklists, moving map/Navigraph integration, and features such as ground ops and failures without diving into sub-menu after sub-menu after sub-menu of the FMC to find and activate them.
  • Proper implementation of ARINC-424 navdata and full support for permissible leg types
  • Texture resolutions that belong in a new generation sim, not legacy ones
  • A soundscape that uses MSFS' sound engine properly

I don't expect perfection, however, the bar has been significantly raised. As *the* Boeing aircraft developer and given their previous reputation for being the best airliner developer, PMDG should be doing better, IMO.

Simply put, other developers, both freeware and payware, and with a lot less flight sim experience, are showing everyone how it should be done.

The funniest thing I find about the obsession with EFB's is the fact that they're so boring. I literally can't think of anything worse than a screenshot of an EFB but kudos to PMDG if they manage to put one out there and successfully dress it up as exciting. Maybe once a screenshot is released we will see arguments on here about the shade of grey on the plastic surrounds...

EFB's in the sim are also ridiculously awkward to use. A ground chart tracking the aircraft for example is useless in MSFS because you cannot see where you're going whilst looking at it. I prefer to do this on my iPad or iPhone driven by Navigraph which totally defeats the point of the sim based one. You cannot look at charts on a sim EFB and the FMC at the same time which also renders it almost pointless because it's just really awkward.

The only benefit I see from any EFB is for performance calculations but meh, a quick Google nets you something fairly usable and similar. TopCat did this 15 years ago and even excel can do it!

Personally, I think the only critical importance for any MSFS EFB is the ability to drive it on an iPad. Now that would be crazy good, Fenix and FSLabs are the only examples that come to mind. Until then it's best to get an iPad and use that as your EFB. For the rest of time, don't worry about it, fly the aircraft and look where you're going! 🙃

Edited by G MIDY
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Lawrence Ashworth

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5 minutes ago, G MIDY said:

Personally,

That's your opinion, to which you're rightly entitled to hold. *A lot* of people hold a different one.

Discussing solely the EFB doesn't respond to the issues regarding the other three points I highlighted.
Nor the arrival date of the long-awaited 777 that RSR has teased since 15th May 2022, which is some 16 months ago...

Quote

Vin promises me we will be able to start previewing the 777 "soon™"

 

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