Future of DX10 Question?

[Avcomware 1]

>>You haven't stepped out of line-but if you don't enjoy the party-don't go!<

[Guest j0nx]

I agree. The SOLE reason I purchased the Xpack was for dx10 which obviously does not work as advertised. I would be willing to even do a clean reinstall of my OS and FSX but others have tried and it didn't change the fact that dx10 ran lousy for them. Some people say they get the performance upgrade when using dx10 although I don't see how since I am using the same drivers and hardware that they do. The Xpack is a super addon though and the scenery additions and aircraft are superb as well, but I didnt buy the Xpack for those things. I have been anxiously awaiting the dx10 patch for a year now and I feel cheated and stupid for falling for the hype. I keep hoping that it is the drivers, but I have NEVER installed a driver in my many moons of playing games and working on computers that EVER gave me the kind of performance boost that would be needed to bring dx10 up to the level that Aces/Microsoft talked about.

[FlyingsCool 3]

The consequence of all this being less interaction by the developers with the community. Personally, I'd rather have the marketing arms spin a few unkept comments, which I never believe anyway, and certainly never would put at the level of "promises" and thereby suffer some silly depression because somebody didn't keep their "promise", and in turn have access to discussions with the developers.Geez. Keep your expectations lower and you won't be hurt. Wait till it comes out before you believe what anybody says. Then return it if you don't like it.Sorry. Not much sympathy here.What Bill said is true. ACES are people, too. They were promised things, and developed as best as they could to those things, what the heck do you want them to do? This is a business like anything else, and requires lead times and pre-marketing, etc., etc. or nothing would ever succeed. I happen to like FSX.Yes, DX10 has been a complete disappointment. Oh well. Seems to me the same was true of XP when it first came out. And do I even remember DX9 not living up to expectations when it came out?Go to the nVidia forums and read the thousands of complaints about other games there. FSX doesn't even make the radar screen.Aren't any of you involved with the development of products in your own life? Don't you see the exact same things happen in your businesses?Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)N15802 KASH '73 Piper Cherokee Challenger 180

[Avcomware 1]

Hi, Thomas.>>Aren't any of you involved with the development of products in your own life? Don't you see the exact same things happen in your businesses?<

[rrostro 0]

>>>Aren't any of you involved with the development of products>in your own life? Don't you see the exact same things happen>in your businesses?<<>>To be honest, NO!! >In my kind of business you'd be dead with that kind of an>attitude.>The problem is, what you see on this board, and others. People>think they are doing MS a favor by not giving them an honest>feedback / criticism if you will. This is the worst kind of >help you can get. We have a word for these type of people>WEE

[Guest j0nx]

I agree. The type of people that have that attitude are enablers and are part of the reason that things like this happen. Release dx10 a year late and it doesn't work? No problem, go ahead and work on FS11. That's not the kind of attitude that is conducive to a vendor delivering a quality product. I also agree that the devs are people and the tone should be respectful and civil on both ends :) If you are sold a car that won't go into drive then do you just shrug it off and accept the loss or do you demand that the company fix it? I don't see the difference in any situation regardless of the cost of the product. Yeah in the scheme of life and things this is not that important, but that is SO not the point at all and is a pretty weak argument and pretty condescending too.I also happen to love fsx too! I just would love it a lot more if that promosed dx10 patch actually worked for me :(

[Guest djt01]

Unfortunately this is most likely the way it

[Guest The Wizard of Oz]

Couldn't agree more. I posted something very similar to this some time ago. Its not just FSX cost but the thousands of dollars for your system.I'm just grateful that Phil Taylor has been very upfront and honest (as honest as he can be under the constrains he works under) and has saved me thousands of $'s from going down the Vista /DX10 route at this stage.Let's have a XBOX Pro version for FS simmers that has inputs and outputs similar to a PC. I'd be quite happy to pay up to AU$1500 to $2000 for such a unit. Also have an FS lite version for the gamers that just works on a PC but has all the complex stuff eliminated so it will run OK on any PC system with sliders maxed.Think of the headaches and hassles that would be removed from ACES tasks and time that could be spent productively in optimizing for the XBOX.Trying to be all things to all systems is becoming a hopeless task.Re WOZ

[aerdt 0]

Well, the PC has evolved into a "jack of all trades" platform and needs to regarded as one. A lot of people still think that a computer should behave like VCR or gaming console and should "just work" when the reality cannot be further from it.I don't think that anyone is to blame for it. It is how it is and has always been that way. The first and last time my OS runs smooth and without any unknown errors, slowdowns or problems is when I first install it. The problems start when I install the first 3rd party drivers and applications! Who can I blame for it? I don't know. Microsoft for creating the API and OS or the developer for writing poor software?The comparison with gaming consoles is valid and a major reason why they have become so popular. They just work. People don't need to fiddle around with drivers and configuration settings (much like a Mac, if I am allowed to throw in that comparison). However, would a flightsim setup possible on a gaming console? Probably not, because again you'll get no or a very limited number of by 3rd party peripherals, meaning: No track IR, no yoke/pedals (at least not the quality that we're used to), home cockpit building would become obsolete, no dual/triple monitors and so on.So, yes, the amount of versatility is the one strong argument for PC gaming and you pay a hefty premium for it. However, that versatility can evolve into a nightmare, if you have just one crappy driver in your system.Pat

[n4gix 4,947]

>Bill, all what your stating about the timing of Vista/DX10 is>quite irrelevant. ACES may well be a victim of an incipient>and rather plodding technological and programming move to DX10>and Vista. The problem is one of perception though. When you>make claims (i.e., public showings) of FSX and in the same>breath talk about Vista, DX10 performance gains, etc.then you>set yourself up for a fall.Something that's constantly being overlooked is quite simply this:ACES != Microsoft (for clarity, "!" is a negation)ACES is one, small studio within the (somewhat) larger MS Game Studio Division, which is itself a relatively tiny part of the gigantic corporate megolith known as Microsoft.Point: ACES did not make the claims you allude to. Those came from the marketing suits who work from a building on that campus -> over there.Point: all software programs are effectively "held hostage" at the "front end" by (a) the hardware, (:( the operating system, and © the APIs, and at the "back end" by (d) output hardware and (e) the drivers for specific output hardware.So, being sandwiched in the middle of that path, FSX is completely at the mercy (or lack thereof!) of the operating system and APIs, over which ACES has one not one iota of control.Likewise, for the "backend" as well. ACES has absolutely no control over the video hardware and associated drivers. ACES can only act on the assumption that the folks who are responsible follow the established "rules."How in the world can you possibly claim then that "the timing of Vista/DX10 is quite irrelevant." That is a logical non-sequitur if ever there was one!Let's try one more time for the sake of clarity:Vista is the highway - the government (MS) builds/maintains it FSX is a car that drives on the highwayIf the ride is bumpy because of potholes and poor maintenence, how then could it possibly be the car's fault??? :-lol

[aerdt 0]

I agree with all of your factual statements.However, I don't think that the customer should be concerned with all those facts. What "we" currently see has been widely publicized "assumptions" by Aces (or Microsoft, who cares?) that they could not back up in the end product. If DX10 was delayed, tough sell. Then tell us that DX10 for FSX ain't gonna happen or not within the previous advertised form. Not everyone has time or the knowledge where to find the information to read blogs from the employees of a game developer.The bottom line is (to be blunt): If they just would kept their mouths shut, then we would have no problem at all, but would be applauding and praising Aces for an unexpected DX10 preview, even it is a preview. The fact that FSX was heavily marketed to the outside as a DX10 showcase made the entire situation frustrating for the customer and especially awkward for Aces.Fact is that all those claims about DX10 were made loooong before even someone at Aces saw the hardware -or- has written a single line of code for it. The "good" approach would have been to start advertising the new DX10 features when it is actually in beta/functional stage in the development cycle, not only an idea or a sketch on a paper how it "could be".My box of "Acceleration" still states that the product features the latest technology of DX10, when it is really does not (well, except the cockpit shadows). I mean, really... their marketing is so far off from reality that they're just screaming to get a slap on their wrists, don't you think?Pat

[Guest djt01]

[Guest djt01]

[Mace 1,902]

>Hopefully FS11 will be different and promises>can be tempered.Better yet, how about expectations lowered.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2585 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2gb Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8 (1T), WD 150 gig 10000rpm Raptor, WD 250gig 7200rpm SATA2, Seagate 120gb 5400 rpm external HD, CoolerMaster Praetorian

[Guest Lennyt]

ACES is one, small studio within the (somewhat) larger MS Game Studio Division, which is itself a relatively tiny part of the gigantic corporate megolith known as Microsoft.Point: ACES did not make the claims you allude to. Those came from the marketing suits who work from a building on that campus -> over there.Point: all software programs are effectively "held hostage" at the "front end" by (a) the hardware, (:( the operating system, and © the APIs, and at the "back end" by (d) output hardware and (e) the drivers for specific output hardware.So, being sandwiched in the middle of that path, FSX is completely at the mercy (or lack thereof!) of the operating system and APIs, over which ACES has one not one iota of control.Likewise, for the "backend" as well. ACES has absolutely no control over the video hardware and associated drivers. ACES can only act on the assumption that the folks who are responsible follow the established "rules."How in the world can you possibly claim then that "the timing of Vista/DX10 is quite irrelevant." That is a logical non-sequitur if ever there was one!Sorry Bill. Don't buy it. If your publicist states you're superman and people actually find out your just a chump with a bad hero suit do you think it's right to hide behind the publicist and claim ignorance? You're getting the money and the work. Blaming the guys in corporate is not going to cut it. Moreover, I've seen videos of ACES individuals speaking about expectations for Vista and DX10. Were their stated expectations misguided? Misinformed? Misleading? I don't know but in the end the consumer depends on them and makes purchasing decisions. Hiding behind suits doesn't cut it though.And to the poster above who didn't want to extend any sympathy for me: I could care less about your sympathy. I've posted somewhere else on this board I have completely erased FS9 and my $1000 plus of addons when I bought my new quad core system a few weeks ago. It's FSX only now. I have always moved on to the next version and have accordingly upgraded my hardware (ever since the Sublogic days). I'm not looking behind. But I am looking for honesty and integrity. Not excuses and corporate obfuscation. Let's just be realistic in representations next time. If "corporate" misrepresents then let those who are the presumed victims (ACES) of that misrepresentation quash the expectations immediately.