11 hours ago, abrams_tank said:

They also don't specifically state Openstreetmap in the video. For example, at timestamp 1:06 when the 2D buildings are replaced by 3D buildings, is the "before" imagery Openstreetmap? But maybe the timestamp at 1:06 is just a demonstration of the improvement that Blackshark AI's processes can do, not necessarily the source data that Blackshark AI is using.

We know OpenStreetMap data was used somewhere in the process because there was an abnormally tall building outside of Melbourne at the sim's launch, which matched a mistake in the OSM data from several years ago.

Plus the autogen building code files mentions OSM data types.

Maybe OSM is used where possible, and the Blackshark AI is used to make individual buildings where there's no data?

Edited January 1, 20242 yr by Tuskin38

34 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

Well if you would just announce that you are, in fact, developing a plane for MS2020 then every one would love you. 😀 Come on, go where the money is. You know it makes sense. Meyer is done. He is never going to take the lead again, Go with the flow. EDIT Happy new year to you.

Yeah, I am afraid that Meyer is like the Captain of the Titanic at this point. 

36 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

Well if you would just announce that you are, in fact, developing a plane for MS2020 then every one would love you.

Naaah - some, maybe. Definitely not everyone 🙂

 

17 minutes ago, Tuskin38 said:

We know OpenStreetMap data was used somewhere in the process because there was an abnormally tall building outside of Melbourne at the sim's launch, which matched a mistake in the OSM data from several years ago.

Plus the autogen building code files mentions OSM data types.

Maybe OSM is used where possible, and the Blackshark AI is used to make individual buildings where there's no data?

Oh yeah, I am not disputing whether Blackshark AI is using OSM data. I agree with you that they probably are using it.

I am just asking questions on how they are using OSM and hopefully somebody reading this thread knows. For example, I don't think Blackshark AI is using OSM for the vegetation, they are probably using satellite imagery for the vegetation?

Anyways,  I was just asking questions and hoping that somebody who knows the Blackshark AI technology and process better could answer the questions. I am curious and interested to learn more details about the process Blackshark AI is using as the partnership video is pretty vague on some details.

On 12/27/2023 at 5:29 PM, abrams_tank said:

our threads in the MSFS forum

"our" threads?

That's a bit posessive, at the very least. The levels of tribalism here are somewhat disturbing sometimes. And I'm being polite and mindful of the official protocols when I say that.

2 hours ago, abrams_tank said:

What's interesting is that after the IPhone was released in 2007, RIM (Research in Motion) revenue continued to increase until its peak in 2011: https://www.statista.com/statistics/266240/global-revenue-of-rim-since-2004/.  For those that don't know, RIM was the maker of the Blackberry. You would think that when the IPhone was released, it was going to kill RIM and the Blackberry immediately, but it didn't kill it immediately. I think what happened was that each successive version of the IPhone after 2007 got better and better, and the ecosystem (apps) of the IPhone also got better and better, until around 2012 or so, consumers just figured out the IPhone was just so much better than the Blackberry, and Blackberry sales began to dip drastically.  Of course, Android phones entering in the market at that time didn't help the Blackberry either.

I'm not saying the exact same thing will happen in the home flight simulation market.  But it's definitely something that I will be fascinated to watch as it happens.  I will say this though - if the MSFS team executes very well with MSFS 2024 and MSFS 2024 has a very, very, good release, that will spell trouble for the competitors left in the market.  However, if MSFS 2024 is plagued by a lot of problems at the release, I think it will give a lifeline to the competition.

 

Good observation.

The true cause of the gradual ascendance of iPhone over BB was delayed business adoption. Driven, of course, by consumers demanding to use their iPhones as biz tools (MS Exchange integration with Outlook being the key driver). Ironically, it was the reverse of Windows over Mac, but I digress... 😉

The parallels are there, but IMHO the dynamics will play out differently in flight sim, whatever the eventual outcome.

1 hour ago, andy1252 said:

The levels of tribalism here are somewhat disturbing sometimes.

Are you saying I shouldn't be tying my sense of self-worth and identity to the flight sim I use? 

2 hours ago, abrams_tank said:

I am just asking questions on how they are using OSM and hopefully somebody reading this thread knows. For example, I don't think Blackshark AI is using OSM for the vegetation, they are probably using satellite imagery for the vegetation?

Anyways,  I was just asking questions and hoping that somebody who knows the Blackshark AI technology and process better could answer the questions. I am curious and interested to learn more details about the process Blackshark AI is using as the partnership video is pretty vague on some details.

From what I know, there is OSM data in there (and it's listed in the credits), they have used them to get building heights and types (and imported some problems with buggy data as well). Microsoft also donated the AI detected building data back to the community to be imported into OSM.

As for the vegetation, they used the Bing aerial imagery with some sort of AI model running on AzureAI to detect vegetation areas. I have used in the past a much simpler process that would simply run a sliding window over each aerial tile and look at things like colour, noise, proximity, etc and then score the likelihood the small window was vegetation, and if it passes a threshold it would tag it as such. The AI will do a much better job than this simple method, but it's a similar idea. The vegetation it produces is basically a mask matching each bing tile saying where it thinks trees are and aren't, and I'm sure there is a bit more to it (e.g. Detecting species, heights, etc). There are a lot of false positives though, I remember after launch it detected large parts of the desert as forests, but it seems to have gotten better over the years. That being said, it definitely needs to be turned down a bit in some areas

26 minutes ago, Dermot McClusky said:

Are you saying I shouldn't be tying my sense of self-worth and identity to the flight sim I use? 

@Dermot McClusky, my ironicometer is running ok, so I appreciate your response <grin>!

@Everybody Else  - but the sad thing is that some folk really do seem to function that way. And I'm ok with that generally, but there are moments . . . . and that was one!

And as for the survey . . interesting but expectable stuff, that really shouldn't be used as a pitch for flag-waving or theorising of any sort. 80% of all surveys represent only 20% of the possible responses, and of that 32% only the fourth quartile represent a true 90% of opinion. And I've seen a youtube video to prove it.

Whatever.

Enjoy whatever sim you enjoy, people. It is possible to enjoy more than one sim. Supporting a specific sim doesn't actually say anything about you - it doesn't make you smarter / dumber / more attractive etc. Thinking it does and posting about it all the time, however, does say something about you.

I'm done here.

1 hour ago, andy1252 said:

And as for the survey . . interesting but expectable stuff, that really shouldn't be used as a pitch for flag-waving or theorising of any sort.

Yep, if you are thinking we should do everything we can to discourage tribalism that makes sense.  I'm not certain what qualifies as tribalism but the word does connote something negative.  That being said, I see this, the accolades ascribed to the survey, as a means of expressing gratitude for what MSFS has given us, and I remain excited as never before in any flight sim and the persistence of that excitement demands gratitude.  Just another POV

9 hours ago, SierraDelta said:

Naaah - some, maybe. Definitely not everyone 🙂

 

One of the few times I agree with you.  

12 hours ago, tonywob said:

From what I know, there is OSM data in there (and it's listed in the credits), they have used them to get building heights and types (and imported some problems with buggy data as well). Microsoft also donated the AI detected building data back to the community to be imported into OSM.

As for the vegetation, they used the Bing aerial imagery with some sort of AI model running on AzureAI to detect vegetation areas. I have used in the past a much simpler process that would simply run a sliding window over each aerial tile and look at things like colour, noise, proximity, etc and then score the likelihood the small window was vegetation, and if it passes a threshold it would tag it as such. The AI will do a much better job than this simple method, but it's a similar idea. The vegetation it produces is basically a mask matching each bing tile saying where it thinks trees are and aren't, and I'm sure there is a bit more to it (e.g. Detecting species, heights, etc). There are a lot of false positives though, I remember after launch it detected large parts of the desert as forests, but it seems to have gotten better over the years. That being said, it definitely needs to be turned down a bit in some areas

Hey, thanks Tony! That was very useful information! Already from the MSFS 2024 videos, it seems like the MSFS team is using AI to make the terrain even better in MSFS 2024. I think the use of AI will further make the terrain and scenery more realistic in future versions of MSFS.

One thing that I appreciate about MSFS is that Microsoft and Asobo are using the latest technologies for flight simulation. It's as if flight simulation is being treated as an AAA game, along with the budget of an AAA game.  In the 10 years between the closure of Ace's Studio and MSFS, it seemed like flight simulation for the home market was falling behind the available technology.  There was a lot of new technology out there that could have enhanced flight simulation during those 10 years, but the technology was not being used for flight simulation (probably because of the cost). Finally MSFS comes in after 10 years, and the MSFS team shows us what flight simulation can look like when the latest technology is applied to it. And even for a game, the MSFS team is very, very, quick sometimes to implement the latest technology - MSFS was one of the first games to support NVidia frame generation for the NVidia 4000 series cards.  So I look forward to seeing what new technologies the MSFS team will use for MSFS 2024, including the use of AI to make the terrain better 👍

Edited January 2, 20242 yr by abrams_tank

15 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

Yeah, I am afraid that Meyer is like the Captain of the Titanic at this point. 

MSFS has been out for 3 1/2 years now, and XP hasn't gone anywhere. It may not have expanded its userbase much and that's I think due to MSFS being so popular, but it certainly isn't dying. It probably won't die when MSFS2024 is released either.

I don't understand the incessant preaching of the 'XP (and other sims) are going down' narrative to the point some seem to actually be happy about that prospect and wishing for it. Imagine if MSFS created a monopoly with other sims discontinued and MS, for whatever reason, pulled the plug at some point. Now what? Complete stagnation of the hobby, stuck in the past with dead sims to dwell on until maybe someone else comes up with a new one at some point.

In a way, this is happening with P3D. It's not going to die completely because it serves different purposes for LM, but it's virtually dead for consumers due to the lack of meaningful progress and developer exodus. You can maintain it as is but the status quo most likely isn't going to change. That leaves two main sims only and if XP died, we'd have a monopoly most everyone would rely on. Not good. People should be happy for every sim in this niche. The more the better.

So for the sake of the hobby, I sure hope Meyer does whatever it takes to at least keep XP where it is right now.

Edited January 2, 20242 yr by threegreen

13 hours ago, tonywob said:

The vegetation it produces is basically a mask matching each bing tile saying where it thinks trees are and aren't, and I'm sure there is a bit more to it (e.g. Detecting species, heights, etc).

The Azure AI detected not masks (areas) of vegetation but every single tree. The total number of 2 trillion trees, which they found on the whole earth, was widely published in early articles about MSFS.

13 minutes ago, fsiscool said:

The total number of 2 trillion trees, which they found on the whole earth

not to mention the 4.7 quadrillion blades of grass, they had to cut during the beta because they were found to be too long. they had 500 people working on it.