Beyond FSX ?

[january 19]

At FanCon, was there any scuttlebutt about a successor to FSX ? Perhaps a version that those of us not possessing a degree in computer science might be able to use!:)Alex Reid

[Guest jshyluk]

I'm pretty sure it's publicly acknowledged that FSX will have a sequel. Microsoft has other projects in the loop that they are getting ready for release. Some of these projects may have technology enhancements that may be used towards a new flight sim. It stands to reason that MS is trying hard to learn from their mistakes. As Tom Allensworth told me at the FanCon, "If you aren't making mistakes, you aren't doing it right," which is either very encouraging or vaguely unsettling depending on your mindset and wit level. It might be interesting to discuss what we feel is overly complicated in FSX. My personal grudge is towards the slider system. Not that I am against sliders or scalability, but sometimes the sliders work in counter-intuitive ways, especially the sensitivity and null zones. That, and the combination of effects of the sliders sometimes creates an unexpected gestalt. A set-up wizard that was smarter than the one that does the initial set-up (remember how horrifyingly bad the intro video looked?) could help. Even a real-time feedback screen in the menu would help us see how sliders affect framerates.Then there's tweaking. I've given up on tweaking FSX. There are people that make good money advising on how to tweak for FSX; there are now industry professionals in the tweaker field. Not much hope for ungifted, untechnical amateurs. Jeff ShylukAssistant Managing EditorSenior Staff ReviewerAVSIM

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

"As Tom Allensworth told me at the FanCon, "If you aren't making mistakes, you aren't doing it right," which is either very encouraging or vaguely unsettling depending on your mindset and wit level."I said that??? Holy moly. I must be getting old if I am waxing that philosophical. I usually come down on the side of "don't tolerate fools gladly", or "he's an idiot; shoot the *** bleep ***". Upon inspection, I suspect both extremes are one and the same... :-lolOh, and go for the encouraging interpretation!

[january 19]

Jeff- your reply sounds a bit hopeful. Thanks. I'm comfortable reading sim or aircraft manuals- in fact sometimes I study 'em just for interest. Complexity of the Sim is not a problem. My concern is that we are being forced to become COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY EXPERTS as well as understanding the Sim itself. I don't recall General Motors requiring me to be a competent backyard mechanic before being able to drive their cars. I'll read the manual carefully and check the oil level but I sure won't change it myself!Alex Reid

[Mace 1,902]

>>It might be interesting to discuss what we feel is overly>complicated in FSX. Ok>My personal grudge is towards the slider>system. Not that I am against sliders or scalability, but>sometimes the sliders work in counter-intuitive ways,>especially the sensitivity and null zones. That's an interesting thing...I have rarely, and I mean very, very rarely, used the sensitivity and null zone sliders. **Just goes to show you how differently people use the same sim.**Furthermore, a user can completely ignore the sliders if they want, and just use the pull-downs: Medium High, High, Medium Low, and so forth. I do think that in the next version, these sorts of general categories could be made "larger" on the screen or presented in a simpler format.At present the FS config screens look DAUNTING to say the least. Maybe we need an "Advanced" tab in the config screen for the tweakers, and a "Basic" tab for the rest?>That, and the>combination of effects of the sliders sometimes creates an>unexpected gestalt. Whoa, big German-in-English word. Is that related to "gesellschaft" and "gemeinshchaft"?>A set-up wizard that was smarter than the>one that does the initial set-up (remember how horrifyingly>bad the intro video looked?) I thought the intro video looked pretty good. ?? Maybe I was the only one. I guess sometimes I am easily amused. :)>Then there's tweaking. I've given up on tweaking FSX. There>are people that make good money advising on how to tweak for>FSX; there are now industry professionals in the tweaker>field. Not much hope for ungifted, untechnical amateurs. >And to that statement, I have always for years replied, "If you don't like to tweak, or cannot tweak, then FS is not for you". That is not an insult, as some take it as being, but rather it is merely a truism. FS has been that way, good or bad, since about FS5.0.When I had FS4 I don't recall tweaking EMM386 or anything like that.Really when it went to the Windows platform (as opposed to DOS) that's what really changed things. I guess toward the end of the DOS era (FS5.0/5.0a/5.1) there was some tweaking going on but not much.And of course the growth of FEATURES in the sim has demanded more and more hardware. With hardware demand comes tweaking, it's a hand-in-hand type of thing.Really when you talk of "tweaking" and "overcomplication" I feel that you are getting into the red zone of the Windows operating system, and "why are we where we are today?" type of questions.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2585 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2gb Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8 (1T), WD 150 gig 10000rpm Raptor, WD 250gig 7200rpm SATA2, Seagate 120gb 5400 rpm external HD, CoolerMaster Praetorian

[Guest pchalpin0855]

>At FanCon, was there any scuttlebutt about a successor to FSX>? >Perhaps a version that those of us not possessing a degree in>computer science might be able to use!:)>Alex Reid Well said Alex. Thank you.All I want to do is relax, fly and enjoy the all of the graphics features that are supposed to be in FSX once you press the "On" button. While I don't exactly feel cheated, frame rates of 2 to 5 at airports with autogen turned off is ........... well I guess I do feel cheated.Peter Chalpin

[Bert Pieke 7,584]

This may be "tough medicine", but to get good framerates, you need a fast current generation system. No tweaking required..

[Murray_CHYZ 1]

>This may be "tough medicine", but to get good framerates, you>need a fast current generation system. No tweaking>required..>>Sorry... you are wrong. Mine is not "the" fastest system, but it "should" be fast enough. And, I need to tweak it.

[Mace 1,902]

>>This may be "tough medicine", but to get good framerates,>you>>need a fast current generation system. No tweaking>>required..>>>>>>Sorry... you are wrong. Mine is not "the" fastest system, but>it "should" be fast enough. And, I need to tweak it.Sorry, I think he's right. :)Mine is an even slower sys than yours, and I haven't had to tweak it at all to get amazingly good performance.You must remember, you're running 3 monitors at mega high resolutions. Your expectations are much much higher by virtue of that alone. Expectations are a big part of it I suppose.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2585 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2gb Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8 (1T), WD 150 gig 10000rpm Raptor, WD 250gig 7200rpm SATA2, Seagate 120gb 5400 rpm external HD, CoolerMaster Praetorian

[Murray_CHYZ 1]

It would be pointless to argue with you about this so let me use an anology...I think my wife is beautiful.Do you?Oh... wait a minute,you're not able to SEE her, are you?Also, you are making an assumtion... don't you think I have tried running this with "one" monitor. I "tweak", remember.

[Guest BOPrey]

LoL. I think she must be beautiful.I think we have a similar system. I only get around 10 f/s above NYC in bad weather with everything max except water set to 2x low, and mid traffic settings.

[Guest BOPrey]

Do you mean quadcore? Or dual core is not current generation?

[Guest DreamFleet]

>"As Tom Allensworth told me at the FanCon, "If you aren't>making mistakes, you aren't doing it right," which is either>very encouraging or vaguely unsettling depending on your>mindset and wit level.">>I said that??? Holy moly. I must be getting old if I am waxing>that philosophical. I usually come down on the side of "don't>tolerate fools gladly", or "he's an idiot; shoot the *** bleep>***". Upon inspection, I suspect both extremes are one and the>same... :-lol>>Oh, and go for the encouraging interpretation!What I learned in Seattle did NOT come from FanCon. It came a day or two before, and I can make no comment about that! ;)What I did learn at FanCon is that Tom Allensworth smokes, and I never would have believed that. Then again, as I do the same, I certainly cannot hold it against him!In fact the best time was had outside, in the smoking area!You'd have Allensworth and Kirkland out there puffing away, along with me, Justin Tyme from FS Genesis, Tim Gregson from Microsoft, John Venema from ORBX and the list goes on. The Hilton could not keep up with emptying the ash tray!Nice show, Tom. I voted for Orlando for next year, but why in Heaven's name you folks did not think of Vegas as a location is beyond me!Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

[january 19]

Mace: Re Post#9 in this thread- Murray may be on to something here when he speaks of beauty.In simming, one might refer to this as image QUALITY. My old AMD 1.8 system, running FS9 with triple views via triple GPUs,produces a 40% gain in image QUALITY over single monitor! (As well as being 48" wide!) I define IMAGE QUALITY as: Resolution multiplied by Frames per Second= millions of pixels/sec.or, dropping 6 zeros: MEGAPIXELS per Second or MPS. Pixels, of courseare the tiny dots of light which comprise the image seen by our eyes.The more pixels per sec- MPS, the better & smoother the picture! To repeat, I get 40% more pixels than when I've deactivated 2 of 3 monitors! I have seen reports, of much higher pixel gains with newer multi monitor setups. No wonder multi monitor,triple view simmers are impressed by the dramatic improvement in QUALITY of IMAGE and not simply in the wider perspective! This multi mon phenomenon may be similar to having 3 Fire Hoses coupled to a Pumper fire truck- a lot more water gets squirted on the fire than with one hose, even though the pressure (FPS) is lower! Got to see it to appreciate! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!Alex Reid CYYJ

[Mace 1,902]

>>Oh... wait a minute,>you're not able to SEE her, are you?>>Well...that's why I said, it's all about EXPECTATIONS. ;)RhettAMD 3700+ (@2585 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2gb Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8 (1T), WD 150 gig 10000rpm Raptor, WD 250gig 7200rpm SATA2, Seagate 120gb 5400 rpm external HD, CoolerMaster Praetorian