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abrams_tank

PMDG says significant portion of 737 Max completed

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4 minutes ago, Jeff Nielsen said:

LOL, I think you're reading way too much into it.

This is usually how it works:  In this order: (so long as their intended product isn't already out, or other plans already well known)

1.  Developers do what they can get access to (source material). In this case they obviously have had Boeings for some time now.
2.  What interests them.
3.  ALL other factors:  marketplace, dev time, etc., are secondary so long as they are viable.  In the sim world, most things are viable and will sell.  Even with 2 of the same product.
4.  Was, rinse, repeat the above.

As you say above, their MAX has been in development for quite some time now.  I think since P3D days?  Like....a really long time ago.  It's actually more important than the NGs, IMO, since it is the newest variant and is rapidly replacing the NGs as well.  Also, RSR really wants the MAX out and to move on from the 37s.  He really wants all his stuff out...lol.  They just have a tone of catch up to do.

I doubt iFly's MAX has that much influence on them.  I certainly would not think it's putting any significant kind of pressure on them.  They already have more than enough pressure on themselves trying to get out their existing catalogue and making it halfway decent for MSFS (sim capabilities for graphical and technical improvements, RNP and the like), along with Xbox and the marketplace.  

In general, as much as we (me very much so 😀), like to troll RSR for his lengthy no-update--update posts, you can tell he's proud of his team and his products.  I honestly think he Just gets excited to see his teams' progress and loves to share it.  I know that feeling.  It's hard to not want to share with anyone who will listen. 

 

 

Randazzo is cognizant of iFly though. He doesn’t name iFly directly, but he alludes to them in his Skyblue radio interview when he talks about the 737 Max.

And you are underestimating the sales lost by PMDG if iFly releases their 737 Max first.

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14 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

Randazzo is cognizant of iFly though. He doesn’t name iFly directly, but he alludes to them in his Skyblue radio interview when he talks about the 737 Max.

And you are underestimating the sales lost by PMDG if iFly releases their 737 Max first.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying, basically, there's nothing WE can do about it.  There is really nothing PMDG can do about it either, IMO...lol.  It is what it is.  I really doubt they can move any faster than they already are.

Anything about sales and what not are purely secondary at this point when they are so far into the game.  It's too late now.  Just shoot it out and see what happens. 

This isn't like FSL trying to come over to MSFS with their 320s when there is already a great one out and another freeware one that's darn near just as good.  Assuming FSL didn't start their dev process before MSFS (which doesn't sound like they did).  So, in this case, they could have theoretically moved resources to the 330...possibly.

Anyways, we can Monday morning QB this to death.  I guess it's always fun to try and guess.   😀

Edited by Jeff Nielsen

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1 hour ago, moxiejeff said:

The point still stands, it handles differently and it can go further, etc

It doesn't really handle that differently.  It's a 737.  Roll control might be a *little* crisper with the FBW spoiler coupling vs the old hydraulic mixing unit, but we're really talking nuances that'll never come through in a desktop sim.  If it really handled differently, it wouldn't be on the 737 type.  That was actually the entire point of the MCAS system in the first place, to make stall recovery feel like an NG - which it does.  

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1 hour ago, abrams_tank said:

So I think PMDG is on a clock if they want to beat iFly.

They're not just on a clock though; we aren't talking about equal representations of the airplane and it just being a matter of which releases first, not if PMDG doesn't get their FMCs modernized first.  The iFly handles modern navdata types beautifully, with arcs, RF segments, and rock solid LNAV flight guidance for hand flying.  Until PMDG brings their aircraft up to that level, I really don't see the purpose in buying a PMDG Max just cause it releases first.  We already have 737s... Might as well wait for a fully working Max, if PMDG releases first but still has all the old navdata and flight guidance.  

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14 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

They're not just on a clock though

They are though.

As much as I agree with the logic of every other point of your post, the killer aspect is that too many people are far too eager to get their hands on the next release. That means they will buy the PMDG MAX solely because it will release first, rather than hold-out for the (expected) more feature-rich iFly version.

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14 hours ago, DavidP said:

I agree. 737's and A320's are over done.

I have news for you guys: You don't need to buy it 🙂

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Personally I'm not bothered about another 737, nice as I'm sure it will be. I don't understand (well, I sort of understand it but I don't get it) why a lot of folk only want to fly current aircraft on current routes etc. I don't see this as an airline simulator, rather a place where I can fly anything that takes my fancy (assuming it's available!)

I'm just in the process of sorting out my spreadsheet for my various addons, and it's making me realise all the aircraft I don't have access to now that I used to in other sims. I'm aware also that I differ from most folk who will be thinking about this new version in that I have no interest in any form of study-level skills, but I do love all sorts of aircraft and love to see them in a sim under my control, even if only in the loosest sense. I'd love to have a 707 again, for example, and I'd be quite happy to pay PMDG prices for such a thing even if I'd never use 95% of the functionality. As long as I can get it in the air from a hot start that'll work for me.

Point I'm making is that I suspect I'm not the only user that feels this way and it would be nice if the likes of PMDG would begin to think about this aspect of their potential market. They'd shift a lot more units if they did. What I need is some sort of b*stard child of PMDG and Captain Sim!

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On a similar note, I’ve got XP12 running reasonably well (and considering buying ASXP as I thought I’d upgraded free but haven’t…) so that I can run the IXEG 737-300 (I know, more 737s!). And the FM does feel better, although MSFS is still my favourite! 

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3 hours ago, ianb2469 said:

On a similar note, I’ve got XP12 running reasonably well (and considering buying ASXP as I thought I’d upgraded free but haven’t…) so that I can run the IXEG 737-300 (I know, more 737s!). And the FM does feel better, although MSFS is still my favourite! 

I used to love flying IXEG 737 classic with XP11, but random crashes eventually turned me off. Developer seem battle those CTD forever!

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20 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

I don't know that I'd read into this that it's coming "soon".  Robert saying that "a significant portion of the Max is already completed" doesn't tell us much.  A "significant portion" of the Max is literally just a 737NG, and we already knew that's completed.  They could honestly say that without having even started Max development at all.

He did say it may come in between the 777 variants. Whether that happens is another matter but since that is apparently an option they will have to be close to completion, otherwise the comment would make no sense.

7 hours ago, andy1252 said:

Point I'm making is that I suspect I'm not the only user that feels this way and it would be nice if the likes of PMDG would begin to think about this aspect of their potential market. They'd shift a lot more units if they did. What I need is some sort of b*stard child of PMDG and Captain Sim!

PMDG and other developers have said over the years that what they see is people typically want the airplanes they see at their local airport. A320s and 737s are being developed more than retro airliners for a reason; that's where the high demand is. I'd personally love a 707 though.

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5 hours ago, threexgreen said:

PMDG and other developers have said over the years that what they see is people typically want the airplanes they see at their local airport. A320s and 737s are being developed more than retro airliners for a reason; that's where the high demand is. I'd personally love a 707 though.

I've no idea how thorough their research into such things is, for all I know it may be very thorough indeed and they may be totally correct. But there can't possibly be any true indication of demand (i.e people actually buying it) if a product doesn't exist. And I don't know how well that sort of argument holds up in the wider range of aircraft on sale for MSFS. And I do mean "I don't know". For instance, what are the sales figures like for things like the Stearman, Waco, Spitfire and such like? And yet I guess you don't see many of those at your local airport. You could argue "yeah but, the Spitfire's a classic" but then many would feel the same about the 707, or DC8.

Not being argumentative here, just saying that they might be surprised if there were some way of really soliciting opinions from a wider audience.


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20 minutes ago, andy1252 said:

For instance, what are the sales figures like for things like the Stearman, Waco, Spitfire and such like? And yet I guess you don't see many of those at your local airport. You could argue "yeah but, the Spitfire's a classic" but then many would feel the same about the 707, or DC8.

Across the entire current flight sim user base, I don't think there are that "many" who feel the 707 and DC-8 are must-have retro aircraft any more.

Each generation has certain aircraft that resonate with them, usually because they've seen them or flown on them. Due to passing of time and (sadly) the passing of older flight simmers, fewer and fewer are interested in airliners that ended widespread commercial service some 30+ years ago.

Other than iconic aircraft that can transcend the generational gap (e.g. the classics: P-51, Spitfire, Concorde, 747), most of the 'kids' today are asking for contemporary aircraft like A220, A350, 777-X, E-Jet E2, as they are what resonates with them. Big glass displays, simple buttons and underslung engines, not a T-tail or set of steam gauge instrument in sight.

My feeling is that developers know this and they're likely to be younger and more interested in modern airliners. So unless they have their own burning desire to produce the old retro airliners (e.g. JustFlight, TFDi), there isn't as strong a business case, nor desire to cater for the shrinking retro market.


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9 hours ago, F737MAX said:

My feeling is that developers know this and they're likely to be younger

You're probably right about all this. I have trouble empathising with people my own age these days, let alone the younger variety <grin>


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On 2/6/2024 at 5:39 PM, andy1252 said:

Personally I'm not bothered about another 737, nice as I'm sure it will be. I don't understand (well, I sort of understand it but I don't get it) why a lot of folk only want to fly current aircraft on current routes etc. I don't see this as an airline simulator, rather a place where I can fly anything that takes my fancy (assuming it's available!)

I'm just in the process of sorting out my spreadsheet for my various addons, and it's making me realise all the aircraft I don't have access to now that I used to in other sims. I'm aware also that I differ from most folk who will be thinking about this new version in that I have no interest in any form of study-level skills, but I do love all sorts of aircraft and love to see them in a sim under my control, even if only in the loosest sense. I'd love to have a 707 again, for example, and I'd be quite happy to pay PMDG prices for such a thing even if I'd never use 95% of the functionality. As long as I can get it in the air from a hot start that'll work for me.

Point I'm making is that I suspect I'm not the only user that feels this way and it would be nice if the likes of PMDG would begin to think about this aspect of their potential market. They'd shift a lot more units if they did. What I need is some sort of b*stard child of PMDG and Captain Sim!

Maybe simulating missing door plug bolts will add freshness to "another 737 addon". Joking aside, some simmers might be burnt out with 737, but if that sells, that's about it 


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21 hours ago, andy1252 said:

I've no idea how thorough their research into such things is, for all I know it may be very thorough indeed and they may be totally correct. But there can't possibly be any true indication of demand (i.e people actually buying it) if a product doesn't exist. And I don't know how well that sort of argument holds up in the wider range of aircraft on sale for MSFS. And I do mean "I don't know". For instance, what are the sales figures like for things like the Stearman, Waco, Spitfire and such like? And yet I guess you don't see many of those at your local airport. You could argue "yeah but, the Spitfire's a classic" but then many would feel the same about the 707, or DC8.

Not being argumentative here, just saying that they might be surprised if there were some way of really soliciting opinions from a wider audience.

PMDG has been selling flight sim addons for 20-something years, and there are other developers who have been in the game long enough. They'll know pretty well what sells and what doesn't. The PMDG MD-11 for example never did well even though it feels like many want one. It would most likely do much better now in MSFS, but then again an A320 or a 737 will also see a huge increase in sales from the higher number of simmers alone.

I obviously don't have numbers but I think it's safe to say planes like the Stearman etc. won't hold a candle to an A320, a 737 or even a 747 in terms of sales, even if they're doing well in their own space. I also can't imagine someone like TFDi with a 717 or MD-11 sells close to the numbers PMDG gets with a 737 and a 777 or Fenix with an A320. I would assume even the A319/A321 expansion will sell better than any old aircraft ever will.

The PMDG DC-6 did very well by their own account, but it came early and was one if not the first high fidelity aircraft for a still brand new sim everyone was drooling over. If it came out now with all the A320s and 737s available it likely wouldn't do anywhere near as well.

Edited by threexgreen
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