If this doesn't scream XBox...

[Guest Dazzlercee_2]

I for one would welcome an Xbox 360 version of FS. A version where you could just switch on the big TV, grab the pad or joystick and boot straight in. No config worries, great fluid scenery, consistent framerates, everyone on a level playing field for multiplayer over XBLive etc, etc. They may even have to make it non-global initially, but we have the wonderful XB Live Marketplace where new regions, scenery addons, planes and so on could be downloaded via optional future updates.I don't understand why people reject the idea. Both versions can stand side by side no problem. If you like your dual monitors, yoke, trackir then stick with the PC version. If you want a more a relaxed, on the sofa, in front of the TV flying session, then go with the XB version.You do not have to sacrifice one for the other. If it happens, I will definately have both.

[Mace 1,909]

>Wait a second - who EVER said it would be an XBox only>product?No one said that. ;)I'll say it again, if FS goes all console, that's the end of FS. :)RhettAMD 3700+ (@2585 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2gb Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8 (1T), WD 150 gig 10000rpm Raptor, WD 250gig 7200rpm SATA2, Seagate 120gb 5400 rpm external HD, CoolerMaster Praetorian

[FlyingsCool 3]

Amen.Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)N15802 KASH '73 Piper Cherokee Challenger 180

[Guest Jimbofly]

You speak from a place of no knowledge whatsoever about what can be done on the XBox 360. Yes you can purchase and download addons and modules in EXACTLY the same way that you can in a PC (you can network the XBox to a PC), and you can also download throught the interface that already exists in the XBox 360.There are EXTREMELY complex and advanced simulations in existence for the XBox. Forza 2 Motorsport uses very advanced physics - you should read up about it. There are plenty of complex strategy titles for the XBox.You speak in an authoritative way about what the XBox can and can't do but you clearly have no idea what on earth you're talking about. You're speculating at best.Yes you can attach complex peripherals to the 360 such as a flightstick and it wouldn't be a stretch for a company like Saitek to create peripherals for the XBox that are identical to those for the PC.Yes you can use a keyboard and mouse with the XBox.I could go on and on but it all seems to fall on deaf ears.James

[aerdt 0]

..from a place of no knowledge.... yea, I guess a PhD in computer science and 20 years of programming experience makes me totally clueless of what can be done on an XBox or any other platform. Get your facts straight or at least keep it on a realistic level."Yes you can attach complex peripherals to the 360 such as a flightstick and it wouldn't be a stretch for a company like Saitek to create peripherals for the XBox that are identical to those for the PC."Where do you get YOUR facts from, because last I checked there are no flight sticks OR joysticks for the XBox. So, please, consider your "facts" to be vaporware.If you can plug in any random joystick in your XBox at this very point in time and make it work, then consider yourself hired.Otherwise..."You're fired." G'bye.Pat

[PhilTaylor 45]

Did you look at my links in this post on this thread:http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...id=424591&page=?Clearly that announces a flight stick for the 360 to play Aces Combat 6. Announced 2 months ago in Sept, due in 1 month in Dec.No one will argue with PC interoperability; it is a console and thus a closed platform with tools and platform SDK only available under specific license and approval. Same as PS2 and Wii, same as all consoles in recent history. Yes you have to work with the XBox team to get peripherals onto that platform. But it does happen. Closed platform does not equate to "no devices ever"; it equates to an orderly, fully supported release as opposed to the uncontrolled chaos of the PC where dev tools and platform SDKs are openly available to all comers.Do you have an XBox360 dev kit on your desk or other access to one? If not, how can you comment authoritatively on XBox360 dev work? Sure you can speculate. But as with this devices question you have to admit it is way too easy to speculate and get it wrong.

[KERNEL32 500]

Pat, do you own an xbox or xbox 360?

[aerdt 0]

I saw the link about the flight stick. Thanks. The previous poster however implied that you just can take any USB peripheral and can just plug it into a XBox and I think it is the general assumption in here that porting anything to XBox is a trivial thing.I do have the XNA Studio, but not the full set of the tools and middleware as they are only open to a limited set of commercial developers and not really open for everyone who just wants to program, let's say, a stand-alone release of Active Sky. Many posters in here think that is trivial for developers just to add another code base to their line-up and seem to think that you just have to take the source, compile it for XBox and be done with it.Pat

[virtuali 4,421]

>I saw the link about the flight stick. Thanks. The previous>poster however implied that you just can take any USB>peripheral and can just plug it into a XBox and I think it is>the general assumption in here that porting anything to XBox>is a trivial thing.I think it's rather you that implied that, *just* because the Xbox it's "closed", there will be NO flight controllers, no TrackIR, etc. That's not the case: the availability of such things it's not limited in any way for technical reasons, it only needs Xbox drivers to be programmed, something that will of course come, should Flight Sim eventually appear.>I do have the XNA Studio, but not the full set of the tools>and middleware as they are only open to a limited set of>commercial developers and not really open for everyone who>just wants to program, let's say, a stand-alone release of>Active Sky.I don't think you'll need something like the full Xbox SDK for a product like Active Sky. Even the regular XNA Game Creators Club will be more than enough, since it already has access to a lot of the Xbox capatiblities, and it's only 99$.>Many posters in here think that is trivial for>developers just to add another code base to their line-up and>seem to think that you just have to take the source, compile>it for XBox and be done with it.If they already work in C#/NET, yes, it would be fairly easy. Converting from other languages might be more difficult but, I don't see it more complex than handling any transition between a flight sim release and the next one. It's just a new platform to learn, so what ? We did that, many times already.

[Guest davewins]

>Where did I post any "criticism"? I think I posted an>accurate representation of what is technologically possible>and what is not. I am not an XBox developer, but I do how to>code from Assembly, C++ to Python and can differentiate of>what's possible/feasible and what is not, so I don't think>that I am talking nonsense here.>>I think that you would agree with me that any potential XBox>port would not be as expandable with 3rd party hardware and>software compared to a PC version (which is the topic here,>no?). Technologically possible, but it won't happen.>>FSXBox would be at best an "Acceleration"-type sim with>fighters and races comparable to the stripped-down "Sims" Xbox>port. Why are there no complex strategy games or simulations>for a console (Civilization, Rome, WoW, Silent Hunter, Tycoon>Series, etc.)? Because it's not practical, there are not>enough controls, because you would need a least a keyboard and>a stable pointing device, because they just can not be played>without one or they will naturally take away complexity and>turn a flight sim into an arcade game.>>PatI guess you must not be reading the entire posts here. I believe it was said by Jim that 360 is capable of having a keyboard and mouse already.

[aerdt 0]

Of course, it *technically* possible to support peripherals for a flight sim. Don't get me wrong: If there was a FS-XBox that supports the variety of peripherals and offers the same functionality as the PC version, of course, I would get it and eventually even would prefer it over a PC version. I am very much into integrated, consumer-friendly devices that take away the tweaking and the guesswork to "make it work, as intended".However, I am also a realist and I very much doubt that there will be a time anytime soon where I can just plug in my CH Products yoke and use it in any potential FS-XBox. The developers need to jump on board and I don't see them doing that (yet).The FS series thrives on add-ons and I just cannot see developers maintaining two or more code bases for their product. Heck, they're having a hard time with XP/Vista, 32/64Bit, DX9/10 anyway. Sure, a console version would eliminate all the current compatibility problems and, yes, that would be very, very welcome and a significant improvement.I mean, there are a lot of points that I previously outlined, that seem to me almost impossible to realize on the XBox, like how to purchase and manage add-ons, how to do repaints, how to configure settings outside of the performance department. FSX in its current form requires a PC, especially for add-ons, like the Flight1 installer, dialog boxes for add-ons (FS2Crew, Active Sky various planes), So, that said, you just cannot just multi-task on an XBox, like on a PC. You just cannot open an application, open another one, move the dialog from Active Sky or any other add-on to another window. I mean those are all major things that need to be ironed out, before we can even start thinking about any potential console port. If that's not the case, then it'll be a really bare-bones implementation of FS, which would probably cater well to the casual gamers, but certainly not the more hardcore flight simmer.I am not saying that it is technically impossible, but that is very, very unlikely that an XBox version will offer the same level of customizations with add-ons compared to a PC version, simply because of the fact that an XBox is not a PC and, if someone thinks that a $300 XBox can offer the same functionality (I am not talking about performance) than a $2000 PC, then they're just a little naive or not really technologically educated enough.Pat

[virtuali 4,421]

>However, I am also a realist and I very much doubt that there>will be a time anytime soon where I can just plug in my CH>Products yoke and use it in any potential FS-XBox. The>developers need to jump on board and I don't see them doing>that (yet).Of course there will be a need for developer support. But that's no difference comparing to Windows. You don't "simply plug-in" a CH Yoke and that works automatically. It seems to be working automatically, only because a driver is included with Windows, and that was only starting with XP. In Windows 95/98 you couldn't plugin a CH yoke and have it working without a driver. So, the only difference is which drivers are available and the willingness to write them, something that of course will come, should a Flight Sim version appear on the Xbox.>I mean, there are a lot of points that I previously outlined,>that seem to me almost impossible to realize on the XBox, like>how to purchase and manage add-onsThat was already covered. I suggest you do some research first. There's no better platform on the market for downloadable extra content as the Xbox. There's a part of the Xbox Live service called "Marketplace", were you can download *tons* of addons for Xbox games, both payware and freeware, and payments are handled very easily, by using the master user account, so you have a *single* way of purchase that is consistent across the whole Xbox platform.http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/marketplace/gamecontent.htm>how to do repaintsI don't see how an airplane repaint could be considered so different than a new Halo level, a new Guitar Hero song.>how to configure settings outside of the performance department.Using a UI. Incidentally, FSX ALREADY uses Xbox UI...Do you think Xbox games don't have any settings ???>FSX in its current form requires a PC, especially for add-ons,>like the Flight1 installer, dialog boxes for add-ons (FS2Crew,>Active Sky various planes)It's quite obvious that, if FSX will ever come on the Xbox, all 3rd party installers will of course conform to the standard Xbox Live/Marketplace installation. Dialog box are of course possible, what makes you think that an Xbox game can't communicate with the users ?>move the dialog from Active>Sky or any other add-on to another window. I mean those are>all major things that need to be ironed out, before we can>even start thinking about any potential console port. It's quite obvious that UIs need to be changed. So what ? Programs like Flight Environment has entirely changed their UI from FS9 to FSX, I don't see why one should be worried about changin it again...Developers are always going were the market is, technical issues can always be solved, nobody will renounce to a potentially lucrative market, just because "ouch, I need to redesign my UI"...>that's not the case, then it'll be a really bare-bones>implementation of FS, which would probably cater well to the>casual gamers, but certainly not the more hardcore flight>simmer.The only thing that I don't think it's feasible with an Xbox, would be the really hard core stuff, like home cockpits and multi-screen. For that, a PC will be always required. The remaining 95% of the market, would probably just happy with a joypad (perhaps a better controller) and an HDTV...>I am not saying that it is technically impossible, but that is>very, very unlikely that an XBox version will offer the same>level of customizations with add-ons compared to a PC versionSame, not. More than enough for the 95% of users, yes.>simply because of the fact that an XBox is not a PCThe Xbox is a cheap PC, quite powerful, the only difference with a standard PC, is that can only run licensed software. Something that, if security issues continue to raise, could also come to the PC. Code signing and security certificates for executable, just introduced with FSX due to Vista requirements, it's the first small glimpse of that.>someone thinks that a $300 XBox can offer the same>functionality (I am not talking about performance) than a>$2000 PC, then they're just a little naive or not really>technologically educated enough.I think that an Xbox can offer even *more* functionality comparing to a PC, because I rate usability for the average user quite high in my feature's list, and that directly translates into higher potential market and sales. As I've said, that 5% of the hardcore community, might be better served with a PC. Interesting enough, Microsoft just announced an hi-end version of the Fligh Sim engine, target at the professional market...I guess the really hard-core users who are into cockpit building and very expensive hardware, will be interested in solution based on that platform as well.

[FlyingsCool 3]

Amen.Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)N15802 KASH '73 Piper Cherokee Challenger 180

[aerdt 0]

>Of course there will be a need for developer support. But>that's no difference comparing to Windows. Oh yes, there is. Why can't I plug in my current joysticks into the XBox then? Or my TrackIR? Because it a) requires a commitment from manufacturers, :( a broad established user base to be or become profitable. Joystick support is a lot more profitable then, let's say a yoke. Yes, yes, I know that one is in the pipeline and I know it's possible, but it will not work with every hardware that is currently connected to your PC. And that is what all of this thread is all about: Providing the exact same feature set on a console. If that is not going to happen, then the XBox will be simply not attractive for the advanced user and will merely be another game that enables you to fly around with.>You don't "simply plug-in" a CH Yoke and that works>automatically. It seems to be working automatically, only>because a driver is included with Windows, and that was only>starting with XP. In Windows 95/98 you couldn't plugin a CH>yoke and have it working without a driver. So, the only>difference is which drivers are available and the willingness>to write them, something that of course will come, should a>Flight Sim version appear on the Xbox.I agree, but that willingness is currently not there.>That was already covered. I suggest you do some research>first. There's no better platform on the market for>downloadable extra content as the Xbox. There's a part of the>Xbox Live service called "Marketplace", were you can download>*tons* of addons for Xbox games, both payware and freeware,>and payments are handled very easily, by using the master user>account, so you have a *single* way of purchase that is>consistent across the whole Xbox platform.>>http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/marketplace/gamecontent.htmSo, you think that every commercial or freeware developer is able or willing to write a wrapper for the XBox? A lot of them don't even know how to write an install routine on the PC. Will not happen. If it's going to happen then it will in the form of a XBox marketplace, which is tightly controlled by MS.>>how to do repaints>>I don't see how an airplane repaint could be considered so>different than a new Halo level, a new Guitar Hero song....so you think MS will just throw in a freeware version of Photoshop for Xbox? Sure, if you can transfer the files to your PC, repaint, and somehow "upload" it again into the console.>>how to configure settings outside of the performance>department.>>Using a UI. Incidentally, FSX ALREADY uses Xbox UI...Do you>think Xbox games don't have any settings ???Of course, they have settings, but the entire GUI is designed completely differently than on a PC. For once, the controls are not there to *conveniently* drag around windows, for example. On a PC you just point and click, on a console you somehow have to manage to enter into window-mode, use the analog or directional buttons to select the window and somehow manage to move them around. Possible: yes. As user-friendly as on a PC: Not really.>It's quite obvious that, if FSX will ever come on the Xbox,>all 3rd party installers will of course conform to the>standard Xbox Live/Marketplace installation. Exactly, and that is not going to happen. Do you think that MS will allow the installation of any random and not certified code on their box? Do you realize that any code that is not certified might compromise your box and quite possibly the entire idea of a stable, integrated system? That is my whole point: While there will surely be a way to distribute professional content, it will never be possible for companies like PMDG or Eaglesoft to distribute (or afford) an add-on via the Marketplace. Gosh, the majority of addons have fixes or a service pack within days of the release. Do you think that MS will provide the service for free to review and certify the code AND put it online in a timely fashion. It is not practical.>The only thing that I don't think it's feasible with an Xbox,>would be the really hard core stuff, like home cockpits and>multi-screen. For that, a PC will be always required. The>remaining 95% of the market, would probably just happy with a>joypad (perhaps a better controller) and an HDTV...I am not talking about 95% of the market, I am talking about porting all or most of the current features available to a console. OF COURSE, a basic and stripped down version would be possible, just not as modular and expandable as in the current form.>The Xbox is a cheap PC, quite powerful, the only difference>with a standard PC, is that can only run licensed software.>Something that, if security issues continue to raise, could>also come to the PC. Code signing and security certificates>for executable, just introduced with FSX due to Vista>requirements, it's the first small glimpse of that.Just because it has a CPU, GPU and memory doesn't make it a PC in any sense. It is a closed environment with very tight and strict requirements for hardware AND software. You could also argue that a Tivo is a PC and you would be technically right, but it is, again, a closed and proprietary system and unless you do some serious (unsupported) hacking, nothing is possible.>I think that an Xbox can offer even *more* functionality>comparing to a PC, because I rate usability for the average>user quite high in my feature's list, and that directly>translates into higher potential market and sales. As I've>said, that 5% of the hardcore community, might be better>served with a PC. More functionality than a PC? You can't be serious. Can an XBox do homebanking, video editing, edit photographs, connect to a server, authenticate to a domain, support virtually any compatible hardware, run different OSes?Okay, I feel I have exhausted my arguments. I have tried to explain the technical difficulties of a potential port extensively. Many have tried to take it as a criticism, other as bogus. Time will tell.This thread has run its course.Pat

[Geofa 108]

"Okay, I feel I have exhausted my arguments."I have to agree.Out of the 20 real pilots at my local airport I know that own fsx -none of them have one add in or even would know what one is, no fancy joysticks, no video editing or photographs (they wouldn't even know how), no need to connect to servers etc, wouldn't even know how to download freeware or where to look for it. A "closed" environment is something they are comfortable with-they may be great pilots but they are computer illiterates!I think that type of user reflects the majority market for fs. I am just glad that Aces are aviation enthusiasts and consider such users as those that frequent avsim in the product at all-cause I think the majority market which I am sure is what the bean counters as Ms are interested in could care less about add ins , hardware , and all that stuff that "serious" users require.I don't see xbox putting pc users out of business at all-but I do see a market for it. More flight sim users I think is a good thing for flight sims in general-regardless of the platform-and there is always the potential that the less "serious" ones will migrate to "serious"-maybe even real flying.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/