If this doesn't scream XBox...

[virtuali 4,421]

>Oh yes, there is. Why can't I plug in my current joysticks>into the XBox then? Or my TrackIR? Because it a) requires a>commitment from manufacturers, That' more than obvious, and it was already plenty clear from what I've said. On any platform, you CAN'T simply plugin anything and expecting to work, without a driver. It's expected that we'll see drivers coming, if a flight sim like FSxxx will appear on the Xbox.>:( a broad established user base to be or become profitable.That's exactly the main motivation why we will see support from manufacturers, supporting console gives peripheral manufactures a way bigger market share.From where you think Mad Catz (very much console-oriented) took the money to BUY Saitek (more PC oriented) ? Yes, maybe you miss the news, last week Mad Catz, that any "hard core" user might label as a cheap manufacturer of crappy stuff, bought Saitek...>it will not work with every hardware that is currently connected to>your PC. And that is what all of this thread is all about:It doesn't need to. There would be only a need for a generic "Flight" joystick, compatibile with the standard Xbox controller, so it will need NO driver, and perhaps somethink like CH yoke and TrackIR, with new drivers. That will conver 95% of the user necessities.>Providing the exact same feature set on a console. If that is>not going to happen, then the XBox will be simply not>attractive for the advanced user and will merely be another>game that enables you to fly around with.There's no need to provide the *same* feature set that are interesting just for the advanced user, considering those are in the vast minority. An Xbox version will reach entirely new users, and they will be more than happy, even without advanced customization.>I agree, but that willingness is currently not there.Right now, we don't even know if it will ever come, it might take years, and it might even come on the *next* Xbox generation. You can't expect CH announcing drivers for something that is not even planned, today, so you can't comment on willingness. When and if it will happen, be sure willingness will come.>So, you think that every commercial or freeware developer is>able or willing to write a wrapper for the XBox? That'a exactly what happens now on Windows, and that's exactly what the Xbox will allow not to do! You don't need custom wrappers and custom installers for each publisher, rather the opposite: the Xbox standard framework already provides an unified service for every publisher that is both:- easier for the developer, since they don't have to worry about writing wrappers and installers.- easier for the user, because it's the same buying interface across not only a single game, but across ALL games, and that works already.- piracy protection is even easier, since the console already provides security, by not allowing running unsigned data without hardware modifications.>If it's going to happen then it will in the form of a XBox marketplace, which is tightly controlled by>MS.That's exactly what I've said. And that's better, because MS Live service can expose 3rd party addons to a *much* wider user base. Last time I checked, there were 8 millions of subscribers to Xbox Live.>...so you think MS will just throw in a freeware version of>Photoshop for Xbox?That's the silliest argument of all. First, because to create a .PSD you don't need a Photoshop, and, why on earth you would want to *create* a repaint on the Xbox ? I suggest again to check your facts before writing something like this, for example by having a look at the XNA for Xbox presentations: ALL content is, of course, prepared on the PC, then sent to Xbox via Ethernet to check it and debug it (it's even possible to do remote debugging from Visual Studio), then it will be uploaded to the net, for everyone to use it. This is how XNA Game Creators Club works, today, and that's only 99$/year for developers, and it powerful enough to allow creating of new games from scratch, so it's even overkill for something as trivial as an airplane repaint.>use the>analog or directional buttons to select the window and somehow>manage to move them around. Possible: yes. As user-friendly as>on a PC: Not really.You are reasoning using the assumption that an Xbox UI should look and behave exactly like the Windows one. That's of course wrong and, if I see a trend in PC gaming, it's the unification of UI, that, even in PC games, look more and more like those on the consoles. Quite obvious, since cross-platform nowadays it's the rule.>Exactly, and that is not going to happen. Do you think that MS>will allow the installation of any random and not certified>code on their box? Of course not. Every developer will need to have its code signed and approved by Microsoft. So what ? It's all an issue of market size, if there are good business chances (and exposing 3rd parties to a much larger public IS), any technical issues can be overcome.>it will never be possible for companies like PMDG or Eaglesoft to >distribute (or afford) an add-on via the Marketplace. And this, exactly, why ? I don't see why PMDG or anyone else couldn't be able to sell stuff on the Marketplace, like the many SMALL companies that are already there.>Gosh, the majority of addons have fixes or a>service pack within days of the release. All Xbox games I heve, the first time they run, they usually download a "patch" from Live. Since the procedure is simple, because (as with installers), it's done as a basic service of the machine and the server it's always Microsoft's, there are usually no problems, comparing to applying service packs to Windows games that can be a pain. But again, it's wrong to assume that there are no patches for Xbox games, because there are.Not to mention, having a single hardware platform, together with the requirement to have the code approved, will automatically reduce the need for patches in the first place.>will provide the service for free to review and certify the>code AND put it online in a timely fashion. It is not>practical.Who said it would be free ? It's obvious that, anything that goes on sale via Xbox Live, Microsoft will get its fair share of revenues. I'll gladly share my profits with Microsoft as a developer, if that would mean selling stuff to a potentially larger market, with new users to reach, that will add to the already existing Windows users. >I am not talking about 95% of the market.I am. And everybody else doing addons will.>OF COURSE, a basic and stripped down version would be>possible, just not as modular and expandable as in the current>form.That's only what 95% of the market needs. You don't need to match current Windows FSX, feature by feature.>Just because it has a CPU, GPU and memory doesn't make it a PC>in any sense. I repeat and confirm, it's like a PC that only runs signed executables. Go further away with Windows security needs and add hardware TPM to all apps, and you'll get the same on the PC...Would you call the PC a "console" then ?>You could also>argue that a Tivo is a PC and you would be technically right,>but it is, again, a closed and proprietary system and unless>you do some serious (unsupported) hacking, nothing is>possible.Wrong comparison, since the Xbox has a very well documented way of adding software, both for big commercial developers, and for smaller companies. Fact any software requires Microsoft approval, doesn't change that 3rd developement IS possible and fully supported, and doesn't require any "hack">More functionality than a PC? You can't be serious. If you took care of *reading* what I wrote, that would have been apparent. What's the point of being able to do home banking and edit photos, in order to create a flight sim ? In fact, it's exactly the opposite: since a console is not supposed to do anything else than gaming, it can offer more functionality ( I repeat again: I rate "ease of use" very high on the feature's list ) for gaming, than a generic machine that is supposed to be able to do everything.>I have tried to explain the technical difficulties of a potential >port extensively.Of course there are great challenges doing that. It might take quite some time, and I guess we'll not see it on the current Xbox iteration. But in the long run, it's something that will have to happen, and technical issues are always solved, one way or the other, provided there's good business sense doing so.

[DadJokeCinema 145]

This is such an odd discussion."Xbox User Interface library (XUI) for the Windows platform."No, that does not scream XBOX.The modeless dialogs in FSX use XUI (ATC, menus created with SimConnect). Any developer working on the UI will need to be familiar with those modeless dialogs.Not to mention that FSX is probably going to leave Gamespy as a multiplayer platform and use Games for Windows Live, which I'm guessing has some sort of XUI for Windows in there somewhere.But that doesn't change the fact that regardless of the fact that Forza 2 has a car painter in it, or that Epic keeps insisting that they will be able to do user-created mods on Unreal Tournament III, that doesn't mean that automatically all of our mods will be a piece of cake to transfer over.About that UTIII bit, Epic's Mark Rein on the state of the XBOX 360 version:"The PS3 is an open system, and they embrace user-created content. But there isn't really a way to do that on the 360. So our job, when we finish the PS3 version, and we've taken a little break, is to sit down with Microsoft and to figure out how we can do mods on their system."There's no release date for the 360, PS3 version is coming out early next month. So, no, there is no precedent for user-created mods on the 360 platform. You say, what about XNA?To run a XNA game, you have to have the developer kit installed on your system, you download the source code project for the game, hook up your xbox via USB and build and transfer the program to 360 to run. You can't run other programs, for example, a flight simulator, at the same time.You have to have an XBOX Live Gold membership at fifty bucks a year, and a XNA Creator's Club membership at $99 a year to run these programs.XBOX 360 games can't require the hard drive, because there is a core model without a hard drive, so you would be loading textures and data from the DVD all the time. This is an issue people are currently experiencing with Mass Effect on the the 360 (texture and object popping).Controllers on the 360 have a standard that they must conform to, and if I'm not mistaken, it's technology has to be licensed and put through a pretty serious certification process. This is costly and prohibitive to start-up companies trying to break into the world.Drivers can not be installed, as far as I'm aware, once again, the hard drive issue.These aren't "well, someone will find a way around it" issues. These are platform restrictions that the top studios and publishers (I.E. Harmonix, Epic) are running in to. They aren't going to change that just to put out a single piece of software that belongs on the PC anyways and has a thriving PC community.The business side, the hardware side, the software side, all of them say it's a dumb plan, and on top of that, the job listing very clearly states "(XUI for the Windows platform". So can we stop beating this horse please? I think it is plenty dead.(These are my views and I'm not speaking on behalf of AVSIM here)

[DadJokeCinema 145]

I know your wording is right in the fact that eventually we are supposed to be able to distribute XNA games, but they haven't figured out how to do it yet, so it remains a bit of a pipe dream.Also, I don't think you fully understand how costly certifying anything for the Marketplace or XBLA is.

[Guest UlfB]

Brian,I'm sorry if this is OT.Why are you not a senator? You seem to have a lot of common sense. So why not? I'm not an US citizen, but I still think that you'd be a good senator.Ulf B

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

I have two problems with that suggestion:A super-techno-geek as a senator? No Way.Loss of said super-techno-geek from the forums? No Way. :-lol

[Guest UlfB]

Tom,Isn't a US senator allowed to operate as an avsim moderator?Ulf B

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

If he were doing the senator job right he would not have time to be a mod. Most in office today do have the time to be a mod too. :)

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

This horse is so dead it has started to smell. Am now locking it.