110% agree with you OP. Those weak translucent 'clouds' are an insult at this stage. Old title from this lgacy codebase were better than this garbage.

You had to make me whip out my Avsim signature...

1 hour ago, RALF9636 said:

Actually I do think it looks "hyper realistic". That is the problem. It means it is overdone and exaggerated in so many aspects. What I want is a "realistic" rendition of the world in the flightsim, not a "hyper-realistic" one.

This is exactly what I am afraid of. That they make the flightsimulator look pretty for the crowds who think that the pictures that Hollywood creates are looking like the real world. The real world just doesn't look spectacular in 99 % of the scenarios - that is what makes the 1% scenarios so spectacular in the real world. It seems that in the sim they try to make it look spectacular all the time and everywhere.

For me it has always been the ultimate goal of flightsimulation to make it as realistic as possible - and not overloaded with all kinds of totally overdone image enhancements effects that make it look like a cartoon.

Would be a shame if MS/Asobo do not have the ambition to create a realistic rendition of the world any more.

 

It's like the strobe effect on props.  Most people are so used to seeing propellers on film that they reproduce it in the simulator because that's what people expect to see. To me, it just looks daft.  I have to say though, not being a meteorologist myself, I would not have noticed the OP's problem.  However, I do like the idea of making the sim look real, rather than just conform to my expectations.

10 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

Some supposed non-kids throwing tantrums and coming up with wild takes based on a 2+ minute trailer meant for a non-simming audience, and then yammering on about how MS/Asobo are catering to "Xbox kids" is... the height of irony most delicious.

I'm actually starting to enjoy all these epic triggerings, next-level assumptions, occasional entrances by the usual diehards with the usual desperate attempts to dump on MSFS, blinders-on insistence that "MS/Asobo will for sure do X!" while they've already said/shown they'll do Y, etc etc.. It is at least entertainment to keep us occupied until the new sim arrives :)) So please keep at it, this hopefully also has the side effect of making MS/Asobo reveal concrete details sooner (not that it'll help calm all the craziness here anyways lol).

You're a very respected poster on these forums and your knowledge of this sim far exceeds mine and I imagine a lot of others.  I and I suspect many others really do appreciate what you do in terms of clarifying a lot of misconceptions that people carry on various subjects, mostly because they don't read all the stuff that's out there and therefore come to somewhat dodgy conclusions which you set us all right on with undeniable facts and references. Long may your extremely valued input reign. So, given the obvious power imbalance I really don't want to lock horns with you but, I can't agree with your post where I feel you just have not listened to people who really do have genuine concerns but maybe haven't quite expressed them as eloquently as you perhaps might like. 

The OP has offered his credentials and while he is not the only meteorologist on this forum or indeed in this thread, he has had some valid points about cloud depictions that have not been disagreed with on technical fact by those with experience in this field. Now I know the marketing department at MS/Asobo will do presets to get the artistic effect they are looking for, but on this basis you say we can't rely "on a 2 min trailer for a non-simming audience".  Why not? Do you know that the OPS concerns will be satisfied when MSFS 2024 is released? I'm assuming you are only speculating on this as much as the OP is. 

Do you know how many cloud threads were raised for MSFS 2020?  (A rhetorical question because you probably do). Why do you think that was? Might I suggest because clouds (along with ATC) are integral elements of flying. Get one or the other wrong in real life and it could be disaster or in the sim at least an unscheduled landing or a an unwanted go around. It's just not credible in the real life IFR world to avoid a Cat II  ILS abort simple because you can see the runway through the opaque cloud a 1000 feet up. Quite reasonably a number of simmers felt cloud depiction in its many forms should be a core element of the sim. But over its almost 4 years in Asobo's hands they have seen very little progression and in some cases actual regression in this core part of the sim.  Is it any wonder Asobo's current assertions that one of their focuses is on the core sim, comes across as just a little hollow?  

The OP stated " The in cloud lightning shown in the helicopter clip is seemingly produced from a stratiform layer of cloud...again totally unrealistic". So clearly that preset didn't come from the box marked "Improved Cloud Depiction for MSFS 2024". So the OP and others have a fair reason to speculate on what MSFS 2024 will have in this regard and that is what the OP has done.  The valid concerns they have had over the past four years have not been allayed by this 2 min video or your suggestion they are throwing tantrums.

We know these often eye rolling threads we not too surprisingly visited or oft created by those who were of the affirmative and desirous of more realistic cloud depictions. Those in opposition could see no real problem with clouds as they were, or alternatively there were those who visited the threads simply to say they frankly couldn't see what all the fuss was about. These two veins run very deep in the sim and have been since the release of 2020. This new release coupled with the clear marketing direction taken by MS will, and already is, exacerbating the difference. We are now seeing disparaging and disrespectful comments referring to people attracted to this sim by calling some people dinosaurs who will eventually die and others Xbox kids only interested in arcade games. This is not "craziness" but actual hateful and I call it out. We must have civil discourse where someone's opinion can be accepted if not agreed with. Otherwise we'll end up like the PMDG Forum and forced to sign our bloody names! 

I'm sure your post is mostly a result of frustration related to the threads of these past few days in which you have been working overtime to help set some straight. But your comments on this forum are very influential and I do ask that you take that into account when otherwise providing your very balanced articulations. Please accept that some people do not see the future of the core flight simulation in safe hands with MSFS 2024 and this should be respected.   

Respectively

Terry 
 

There's only been 2 trailers. I think we should all hold our differing disappointments until they have released more info.

5 hours ago, JBDB-MD80 said:

The competitor is above both levels at this stage anyways.

unfortunately not consistently and with some strange cloud artefacts here and there. but we will have pebbles, billions. here and there and everywhere.

Edited June 13, 20241 yr by turbomax

58 minutes ago, Lord Farringdon said:

This new release coupled with the clear marketing direction taken by MS

published by Xbox game studios, not by Embry-Riddle aeronautical university. that's why MSFS sells millions instead of hundreds. we can only hope that 3rd party devs will jump in again to fill the voids like atc and etc 🤣

I for one will probably not spend more than 1 or 2 attempts on those new SAR helicopter missions like I did with that DUNE extension. time will tell if those gaming activities will ultimately increase the MSFS market. at least this is what they (Joerg and Xbox game studios) seem to expect. more so than CAT III, RNP and GPS-WAAS approaches.

1 hour ago, Lord Farringdon said:

I'm sure your post is mostly a result of frustration related to the threads of these past few days in which you have been working overtime to help set some straight
 

Thanks for your feedback and your points are well taken.. yes my post was indeed about the various threads in general and not just this one, and also done so with a partial intention of levity 🙂 My actual response to the OP is in page 1 of this thread (https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/645545-disappointed-with-msfs-2024-atmosphere-and-cloud-depiction/?do=findComment&comment=5112277)  .. The one you responded to was directed at some other posts on this thread and other ones where the wild raging is going on with various hyperbole and unfounded assumptions, all based on a 2+ minute trailer meant for a non-simming audience (which is even more inexplicable since there are a substantial amount of details MS/Asobo have *already* given and shown about what's coming in MSFS 2024 from last year's FS Expo) 🤷‍♂️ 
 

1 hour ago, lwt1971 said:

2+ minute trailer meant for a non-simming audience

what do you mean by that ?

8 hours ago, JBDB-MD80 said:

I am more concerned about flight physics and how the aircraft fly is more important than pretty clouds. The competitor is above both levels at this stage anyways.

That is a common talking point about MSFS flight physics and quite frankly just not true any more (it was very true in the beginning days of MSFS and the initial state of the default aircraft however).

As always, the quality of flight physics/dynamics ultimately comes down to how each individual aircraft and its flight model (FM) is implemented. We have numerous examples already of stellar FMs in various default and payware aircraft. The key is how the aircraft developer has tweaked and customized their aircraft's FM using the FDE + tools, and it all comes down to this work. Great examples include the Fenix V2 Block 2, default SR22, default Citation Longitude, PMDG 737, A2A Comanche, some of the FSReborn birds, FBW A320, iniBuilds A300, Milviz C310 etc etc. The iniBuilds and default birds for example use fully internal FMs based on the CFD tech, the Fenix a mixture of internal and external (per Aamir), and A2A mostly/fully external. Developer's choice of tech and technique from the MSFS FDE toolbox.

All that said, there is definitely room for improvement in the MSFS flight dynamics engine in the areas below IMO, so let's see:

1. FS Expo'23 presentation on some of the physics/aerodynamics improvements coming in MSFS 2024: https://youtu.be/VPhScg_FINE?t=649
2. One big area of improvement coming (for aircraft devs) is the ability to define proper/detailed aircraft geometry, surfaces, wings, etc in the base model for the FM. Due to the current limited way of defining that currently, aircraft devs have had to work extra hard and put in workarounds and tweaks/fudge-factors/overrides to flesh out their FMs. But as Seb shows in the presentation they will give much more control and flexibility now and this then makes something like the CFD tech work even better when the aircraft geometry can be defined in more detail
3. Ground handling: we know this is being reworked in MSFS 2024, and partially backported to SU15 already (we've already seen the iniBuilds A300 and default SR22 take advantage of this, to good affect)
4. Ground <-> Air transition needs to be better, ability to simulate multiple rows of back wheels rather than just one row (i.e. when landing it's one row of wheels that hit the ground first, then the other), etc: I haven't heard of anything they plan to do here, so let's see

Lastly, I'll point to previous threads where various aircraft developers chimed in on their opinion of MSFS's aerodynamics/physics as it stands now in v2020, and how it compares to other sims, etc:

• Fenix'x Aamir: https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/636158-accusim-2-level-of-flight-dynamics-in-msfs-2024/?do=findComment&comment=4990988
• Matt Nischan: https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/601526-msfs-has-the-most-advanced-flight-model/page/12/?tab=comments#comment-4549236
• FSReborn's Raul on CFD: https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/626199-is-anybody-else-excited-about-the-new-20-km-cfd-in-su11/page/12/?tab=comments#comment-4872362
• FBW's Lucky38i: https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/636158-accusim-2-level-of-flight-dynamics-in-msfs-2024/?tab=comments#comment-4990300
• iniBuilds: https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/636158-accusim-2-level-of-flight-dynamics-in-msfs-2024/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-4991341

The experts' opinions above speak for themselves 🙂 And that's for MSFS as it stands now.. I await all the improvements coming for flight dynamics in MSFS 2024, especially as the likes of Seb and Andrey Petrovich have teamed up to lead the effort.
 

Edited June 13, 20241 yr by lwt1971

2 hours ago, turbomax said:

time will tell if those gaming activities

They’re not arcadey or ‘gaming’ activities according to the devs. You won’t be flying through floating glowing circles in the air guiding you to your SAR target. They will be properly simulated jobs.

Edited June 13, 20241 yr by Tuskin38

2 minutes ago, Beardyman said:

what do you mean by that ?

MS put together this trailer for the XBox gaming showcase event, so it was tailored specifically for that audience, to be shown amongst many other trailers for various other games. Given the short time and the audience, they obviously focused on the visual fidelity of the sim, the improved digital twin earth rendering, the simulation of various aviation activities/careers. They did not focus on the various core simulation stuff we'd be also interested in (like aerodynamics, avionics, systems, weather, ATC, AI, etc).. nor can they, in a 2 minute video 🙂
 

4 hours ago, Grindathotte said:

It's like the strobe effect on props.  Most people are so used to seeing propellers on film that they reproduce it in the simulator because that's what people expect to see.

Same with lens flares. You only see lens flares when a camera lens is involved. Our eyes don't cause lens flares. Absolutely stupid to put it in a game, but almost every game out there has them. If you're lucky, you can turn them off.

 

11 minutes ago, Tuskin38 said:

You won’t be flying through imaginary circles in the air.

you will earn points for accomplishing certain rescue missions like we had already back then with FSX, on which I never spent more than 1 or 2 attempts. I, like probably many here on avsim, am more interested in better IFR, scenery, weather, atc and etc 🤣

Edited June 13, 20241 yr by turbomax

3 hours ago, Lord Farringdon said:

This new release coupled with the clear marketing direction taken by MS

It’s the same marketing direction they had with 2020. Nothing has changed.

Edited June 13, 20241 yr by Tuskin38