Wondering if there are any procedure experts that can enlighten me on this. Going from P2ATC which gives you everything before descent, to BATC which gives you a STAR & runway.

On Garmin that's not an issue as you can just enter that, doesn't seem the same on FMS based systems.

In general I am choosing the most precise approach and then adding a transition only if it connects to the STAR. Which so far has mostly worked out..

Is that how it *should* be done, or is there a better way? In terms of aircraft I am looking at both Boeing & Airbus if that makes any odds whatsoever..

 

G

When I was flying in the USA (I have since retired), ATC would never give you the STAR, but they would always give you the approach. That's because the STAR was part of your filed flight plan, and you already received clearance to fly it when you started your trip, just like you already have clearance for the rest of the route. ATC would only issue the STAR if they changed it from the one that you originally filed, to a new one--which was rare.

However, they would always give you the approach, because that was dependent on the local weather and more likely subject to change. (Also, you never get approach clearance at the beginning of the flight.)

In many non-USA airports, the STAR is more tightly bound to the approach, so they might assign it or update it once they knew which approach was in use.

Not sure if  this helps...

 

Edited June 22, 20241 yr by prolixindec

1 hour ago, prolixindec said:

When I was flying in the USA (I have since retired), ATC would never give you the STAR, but they would always give you the approach. That's because the STAR was part of your filed flight plan, and you already received clearance to fly it when you started your trip, just like you already have clearance for the rest of the route. ATC would only issue the STAR if they changed it from the one that you originally filed, to a new one--which was rare.

However, they would always give you the approach, because that was dependent on the local weather and more likely subject to change. (Also, you never get approach clearance at the beginning of the flight.)

In many non-USA airports, the STAR is more tightly bound to the approach, so they might assign it or update it once they knew which approach was in use.

Not sure if  this helps...

 

 

Thanks, always interested in hearing a comparison to real life to be honest. When would they normally give you the approach itself? Before or during the STAR ?

Although my uncertainty is more about what to enter into the box and when, since the FMS based systems seem to need an approach selected to add the STAR - or do you just choose the runway from the list and then alter it all when ATC gives you the approach !?!

 

G

 

 

 

STARs are often very long, sometimes going on for a hundred miles. You can be well into flying it before ATC tells you anything about the approach. The ATIS will tell you the runway in use, and can mention the specific approaches as well, although in big airports there may be several approaches and runways in use simultaneously so you wouldn’t know what you specifically would be assigned until you talk to ATC as you get close to the airport. Recall that you’re cleared to fly the STAR when you get your initial clearance before departure, so ATC doesn’t need to mention that to you unless things change. 

Some real-life considerations:

If your COM radios fail (which never happens), you’d be responsible for getting yourself from the enroute portion of the flight to the initial approach fix. So there always has to be some way to connect the dots. E.g. you can’t fly IFR into an airport that only has RNAV approaches if you don’t have RNAV capabilities. 

But in real life, ATC usually gives you vectors to the approach, at least here in the USA. The main reason is that pilots always love shortcuts, and many approaches have lengthy procedure turns or extended downwind or base legs that can be cut out via radar vectors. So in most cases you fly the STAR almost to the end, and then ATC takes over and steers you via shortcuts to the final. I know it looks nice to have that magenta line intact from start to finish, but in reality, you get vectors in most cases.

Outside the USA, they don’t always have the same radar capabilities or culture as we do here, and you’re more likely to stay on a published route from start to finish.

It’s also worth noting that on smaller or mid-size airports, even on an IFR flight plan, you’ll be given clearance for a visual approach if you can report the airport in sight. This saves an enormous amount of time compared to flying a full IFR approach. The determinant is usually traffic: if you’re the only one coming in, and the weather is good, you’ll routinely get visual clearance. You’ll only fly a published approach if the weather is bad or if they need to keep multiple aircraft apart and it helps with spacing. 

As for what you put in the FMS, I’m only familiar with the Boeing 747. You can put in whatever makes sense. Typically the STAR gets loaded before departure, but not the approach, because you don’t know it yet. While you’re flying, it’s easy enough to put in a runway and work backwards, or put in a new STAR and work forwards if you have to. You can put in VFR approaches that just give you a final approach course, or any published approach—it just depends on what you need to fly. 

Edited June 22, 20241 yr by prolixindec

Thanks, that was exactly what I wanted to know. Mostly my query was to do with 737 & A320 FMS anyway.

Of two flights last night the first was in the BAE146 though, loaded a transition after the STAR just in case, ended up with VECTORS onto ILS. Cleared it out with DTO, worked well.

Second was taking the A320-p2f into Tromso. Worked out how to add a STAR in without a runway, but since the STAR there is only two points (one runway specific) it didn't really work. Checked and that one connected the dots anyway so added the ILS approach & transition.

Next chance I'll try the 737 & see how I manage with that. Although most of my flying is in Europe so most STARs are shorter here I guess....

G

Most of the time you get vectored and sequenced depending on ATC mood, delays, traffic congestion weather and etc . For the MSFS purposes I would program FMC going direct to from STAR to initial approach fix. But in this case you need to consider airspeed constrains and ability of your airframe to decelerate and loose altitude prior the approach. If distance between last STAR fix and IAF is too small, It's not uncommon for me to make 360 to loose altitude and decelerate! 

2 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

For the MSFS purposes I would program FMC going direct to from STAR to initial approach fix.

That was what I tended to do in the past, my question was more if you know the runway but not the approach itself what would you tend to program.

Not so much in case you get vectors to an ILS final, instead of a procedure, more in case you get a different IAF or ILS Y & an IAF instead of ILS X etc .. .. so a completely different route in. I think @prolixindec answered it in his post.

I did throw a hold in at the IAF to lose speed and altitude for the first time at BIKF when the runway changed - that seemed to work out in the end.

 

G

For BIKF, I would know the STAR at the time of departure--it would be included in the initial clearance, so I would put that in the FMS and leave it alone unless updated by ATC enroute. And I would give the FMS the best-guess runway based on the forecast winds, but I would hold off on putting in the actual approach until I was told by ATC or ATIS what to expect. (Putting in the runway is optional, but it gives you situational awareness if your aircraft has a MAP function, which most airliners do, as do most high-tech GA aircraft for that matter). The approaches at Keflavik aren't that different from one another in terms of route flown, but I still wouldn't enter an approach until I heard from ATC, because I wouldn't want the FMS to have inaccurate data that I might forget to update.

For simulator ops, you "are" ATC, and you can put in whatever route you want. Or else you are using VATSIM or an ATC app, in which case I hope you would be given the approach with reasonable notice to set everything up.

Edited June 23, 20241 yr by prolixindec