13 hours ago, brinx said:

 I have meta quest 2, 3 and I only use it with aerofly RC 10 for short sessions. I don't use VR for regular simming because it starts to get hot, and the weight becomes uncomfortable after 20 minutes of use. I hope the technology improves though; I'd like to use it more for simming.

I can only sim in a 2D panel for about 30m, it's too boring otherwise. I am mostly into short IFR type of flying, especially in XP since the scenery is so generic. I had the Meta 3 briefly, was blown away being in a 3d cockpit at the time, but it was not sharp enough so I returned it. I picked up Pimax Light, and I was/am blown away in DCS and MSFS. I could fly for hours but the headset is not very comfortable. I was super tempted by Bigsreen Beyond but it has mixed reviews. My experience with VR in XP has been awful, performance sucks, and it shacks like I am have an seizure.  

Sorta off-topic, but does anyone know if Lockheed Martin even showed up to FSExpo this year? 

8 hours ago, SAS443 said:

You seem to be a numbers guy.

230 million sessions the last six months (183 days). Figure out  a variable representing how many sessions an average simmer can manage per day.  Perhaps start with 3 sessions per day

Present your findings below.
 

Exactly what I was thinking. That’s a low usage for 15 Mio users, even more if you take a very unrealistic estimation of 3 sessions per active user and day. That would mean less than 0,5 Mio of active users in average. That’s even less than my raw estimation of 1,5 Mio. Thanks.

8 hours ago, efis007 said:

sometimes manages to amaze me more than the mega-advertised XP12 and related statistics.

Correct. Except that the discussion was related to MSFS’advertisment and the numbers thrown in the air by them. XP doesn’t communicate such numbers.

On 6/22/2024 at 11:00 AM, mSparks said:

That aside, hilarious how the conclusions at the end were all "othersim should probably think about trying to do this and that as well". Tacit admissions Xplane 12.1+ is/has at least edged ahead in graphics and visuals.

Haha! Oh, the irony. How time flies. So now ‘eye candy’ is virtuous!😂

Edited June 27, 20241 yr by jarmstro

1 hour ago, jarmstro said:

So now ‘eye candy’ is virtuous!😂

Its not the reason why people use XPLANE, but most demand it. Laminar flight model, systems always on the improve.. Professional users care less for the fancy graphics. Laminar's aim 60FPS. Getting closer every update.

3 hours ago, Franz007 said:

That’s a low usage for 15 Mio users

No, it's better than industry standard retention, especially after four years post launch.

MSFS is having strong KPIs in the "stabilization phase" and "late dedicated arrivals"segment. Session frequency is increasing not decreasing.

Performance 4yrs post-launch is excellent, so is the ecosystem health. In case you are doubting. (You seem eager to label current MSFS userbase as a failure for the title)

 

Nah people just like arguing, nothing to do with reality

6 hours ago, brinx said:

and said they are waiting for the technology to advance further.

 

who do you mean by they? 

XBOX VR is not planned, unlike Sony, microsoft killed it with zero titles released and zero titles planned.

6 hours ago, brinx said:

but until the technology improves (lighter headsets etc.),

VR crossed the chasm and is now in the "early majority" phase, PSVR was early adopters.

Best selling devices atm are occulus quests and PSVR2 - way ahead of xbox which is deep in the skeptics phase (/me waves)

Its not bad sales overall that is bringing PSVR2 PC, its that occulus quest is currently dominating the entire console market,

I expect most every booth in FSExpo 2025 will be rocking a PSVR2 if PC support does arrive this August....

1 hour ago, SAS443 said:

No, it's better than industry standard retention, especially after four years post launch.

What is the rate of those industry-standards? Is there a source for that info? 

3 hours ago, Franz007 said:

What is the rate of those industry-standards? Is there a source for that info? 

D30: 10% of D0 users
D550/ 18 months : 1-2% of D0 users (some sources goes as high as 3.5%)
Chat GPT can easily round up these industry standards for you,

So if we have 500.000 active out of 15 million, that is roughly 3,3% active. Which is a tremendous retention rate for a 4 yo title

Especially with the volatile Game Pass users in the mix, who have virtually hammered that retention rate. That phenomenon is described below (red text are my edits)
 

Quote

"Quite often games with great long-term retention (see stats above!) are deep and complicated (such as MSFS). It makes such games less accessible and therefore relevant for a smaller audience than casual games. When you soft launch such a game (like MSFS), acquiring users through Facebook or Google ads (usually with a pretty broad targeting, just like exposing MSFS to Xbox Gamepass) you end up seeing pretty low short-term retention (Which is why majority of 15 million users are not active anymore) simply because for the majority of players these games have too high of an entry threshold"

source: https://www.deconstructoroffun.com/blog/2020/4/7/long-term-retention-why-d180-is-the-new-d30

This is the reason why 15 million users are not active. It's a well recognized pattern and is not standing out in any way. 

Quote

To achieve meaningful retention in gaming, you need to create a meaningful experience. An experience that your players will come back to and enjoy, time and time again.

Snippet above is from data analytics company Solsten,

And that's exactly what Asobo is facilitating. Or why is the churn rate so low after initial player stabilization (which happens to every title). Why do simulator sessions frequency seem to increase instead of decrease?

PMDG just turned over 1.550.000 USD  the last 24 hrs, for a niche long hauler aimed at a niche audience (sim enthusiasts) using niche title (MSFS, a flight simulator of all things). 

Franz: But they have lost virtually all their users!
Alternative version: The Ecosystem in MSFS has retained the profitable ones.

Edited June 27, 20241 yr by SAS443

4 hours ago, mSparks said:

I expect most every booth in FSExpo 2025 will be rocking a PSVR2 if PC support does arrive this August....

That is great. I have no loyalty to any one brand.  I just want the best experience. In terms of value, meta 3 offers the best value for me at the moment so I bought it. Stories like the below sounds like bad news for VR though.

Quote

Report: Sony stops producing PSVR2 amid “surplus” of unsold units

 

4 hours ago, mSparks said:

who do you mean by they? 

XBOX VR is not planned, unlike Sony, microsoft killed it with zero titles released and zero titles planned.

By "they", I mean Phil Spenser and Matt Booty. 
Yes, it is not planned currently. Initially it was planned but dropped. As you can see with both Sony and Apple cutting production, the market isn't there. Matt's quote below.

Quote

I think for us, it's just a bit of wait until there's an audience there. - Xbox Game Studios' director Matt Booty

However, Xbox head Phil Spencer remains optimistic about VR’s future, suggesting that it could eventually become a “no-brainer” for Xbox

I feel like we are going in circles here, so I'll just end by saying: Once the VR tech improves (smaller, lighter, comfortable) at affordable prices, we'll see a lot more support including from companies like Microsoft.

45 minutes ago, brinx said:

Stories like the below sounds like bad news for VR though.

If there was any truth to them it might, but they are just the typical drivel written for those who will never be capable of competing in the quickly emerging VR market.

a simple glance at quest 2 and 3 sales vs products like xbox plus the line up of new titles coming soon to PSVR show there is no truth in anything the VR doomsayers wish was true. 

45 minutes ago, brinx said:

Initially it was planned but dropped. As you can see with both Sony and Apple cutting production, the market isn't there. Matt's quote below.

Which is why I think it is probably patent related more than just a lack of software support.

occulus/meta, sony and apple for sure each have exclusive access to important basic VR tech for the coming decades now. microsoft has exclusive access to hololens....

45 minutes ago, brinx said:

In terms of value, meta 3 offers the best value for me

Not just you, but I already had a low res headset without eye tracking, great and all but until PC has a decent value, wired, lightweight high res headset with eye tracking Im happy sticking with that.

that technology for PC is supposed to be "matured" this August, that means nothing for VR for xbox - Id say zero chance of microsoft investing in titles for the PSVR2.

That's why I dismiss the "waiting for it to mature" argument, unless "waiting for it to mature" really means waiting for the meta/sony/apple hardware and software patents to expire, circa 2050.

Edited June 27, 20241 yr by mSparks

@SAS443

Thanks, that’s interesting. That’s why it was important for the people to be aware that at the end there is only a much smaller part of active users compared to those having purchased it. But I wasn’t aware that it was that low. And I guess most of people aren’t aware as well.

1 hour ago, SAS443 said:

Franz: But they have lost virtually all their users!

This comment really was unnecessay. First of all I have never said that. Or please quote me. And the background is: I have seen comments from MSFS-users throwing in the air that MSFS-community was so much bigger, I have even seen people saying 100x bigger. So these numbers put things into perspective again.

My guess is that XP has a more solid groundbase (active users) compared to the total of sold copies. I may be wrong but it would be interesting to have those data as well. The source for that is what I have observed in the amount of streamers/Steam-users during the first 2 weeks and what was left after that. For XP12 I haven’t seen that, in contrary, the (low compared to MSFS) amount of users in the first weeks have continuously incresed. So there seems to be a very different pattern here.

And here I am with ZERO interest in VR. All I care about is the 2D sim.