Whether it's thanks or not to Jorg Neumann, all I know is that between the early 2000s and 2020, I barely did any flightsimming. I just could not get myself to invest money on new hardware so that I could run what I felt was like a very stagnant hobby.

To me, flightsimming had become a thing of the past, too niche to ever get the innovation it needed.

The years since 2020 have proven that flightsimming could actually flourish commercially beyond my wildest dreams. I never, ever expected something like that to happen.

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Someone else would have eventually come here no question whatsoever.

would have, could have, should have. but didn't. for more than a decade.

"Someone else" would have had to have, among many other things, the budget, power, expertise and industry contacts only someone of the size of Microsoft has and at the same time guarantee it will become the commercial success that MSFS turned out to be. I can't imagine who that "someone" could have been.

Edited June 23, 20241 yr by turbomax

2 hours ago, Ricardo41 said:

Zilch. Zip. Nada. Flightsim wouldn't have a future and would instead be shackled to LM P3D.

I remember MS Flight, which came out around 2012, had trees that looked like 3D trees. I don't know if they were actually 3D trees or not, but at least they looked like it: https://youtu.be/Dc3oycoR5lQ?si=c8jU6F8LH2_L29V5&t=44

In the decade I was away from flight simulation, I still checked in every now and then to see what advancements were made. And when I checked in again in 2019, I remember the main flight simulators used by the community at the time were still using 2D trees.  Like the 2D trees being used by the main flight simulators in 2019 were worse than the trees from MS Flight in 2012.  That's how complacent the fight simulators were at the time, that their 2D trees were worse than trees that a defunct flight simulator had from 7 years earlier.

I honestly think without MSFS, I would still be away from flight simming, probably just checking in to see what had improved over the years (because things were barely improving in the decade before MSFS).

And this is total speculation on my part, but I think that when Jorg (and I assume Seb was with Jorg at the time) met with the executives at Microsoft to get the greenlight for MSFS, Jorg probably presented the two flight simulators that were dominating the market, to the executives at Microsoft, to show what the competition was.  I think when the executives at Microsoft saw what the competition was, they gave Jorg the greenlight and the budget because they knew that a properly done modern flight simulator that could leverage the latest technology available at the time, would easily take back the market share for Microsoft. And they were right.

 

Edited June 23, 20241 yr by abrams_tank

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Someone else would have eventually come here no question whatsoever.  Just like many other great discoveries and inventions multiple players often worldwide hover around the issue but typically one person or group gets the credit for making it more public first.

Who remembers the third man to walk on the moon? First two are easy. Same for the ascent of Everest.

Bruce was the first to realise what a humble computer could do. All the others are in his wake irrespective of how much they improved each iteration.

5 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

The visuals wouldn’t be as good, obviously. 

Microsoft Flight Simulator's contribution to this industry is far from being just "the visuals," nor the visuals are the most relevant part of it. 

What Microsoft Flight Simulator (under Jorg's leadership) did and is still doing is making the flight simulation hobby accessible and attractive to an audience that can feasibly support a healthy industry.

Wth literally every other simulator you buy the sim and you're given the barebone basics. You have some basic-level default aircraft, so-so avionics, lackluster scenery, and few tools. 

If you're not turned off by the rough state of what you're offered, you cannot access higher level simulation unless you start buying other stuff, which automatically turns off 90% of people. "Hey, buy this thing, but can't get beyond the basic level unless you buy this bunch of other things" is not how you push a hobby, and that's why before MSFS this hobby was becoming more and more insular and less and less vital. The lack of new blood was suffocating and literally no one else was doing a single thing about it.

With MSFS, not only novices aren't turned off by technology that is more at home in 2011, but they have a fully usable product that will accompany them from the basics to a fairly high level of simulation. You can go from your first Cessna to a fairly advanced and complex airliner and advanced avionics without spending a dime. All you arguably need is a Navigraph subscription on top of the sim (and this requiorement will likely be gone with 2024, which will offer a fully complete package).

These hundreds of thousands of people who aren't turned off by hitting a wall at which they have to start buying stuff can in turn support an industry that isn't forced to scrape by on the few thousands who fly on other simulators, driving prices up to have some survivable margins, and in turn making the hobby even less accessible and enjoyable for novices.

Edited June 23, 20241 yr by Abriael

@Abriael, I’m not sure why you felt the need to post such a lengthy reply to my brief post. We all use the simulator of our choice. MSFS is not mine.

Jorg is in a league by himself currently as far as I'm concerned, as is Microsoft and its leadership, with just how far and broad thinking they are when it comes to flight simulation, and world simulation (and innovative combining of various tech stacks like AI/cloud/Bing/etc and infrastructure to drive the simulation)

That said, in addition to Bruce Artwick, I have to also call out another great when it comes to key figures in flight simming, Seamus Blackley: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seamus_Blackley.. creator of Flight Unlimited, and the first known use of computational fluid dynamics (CFD) to aid with the simulation of flight physics in a computer (of course it had to be reduced to simpler equations and lower precision so that the calculations could be contained on the hardware of that time). Kind of fitting how CFD is the main tech behind MSFS 2024's physics.

Edited June 23, 20241 yr by lwt1971

In a similar vein, who invented the first smartphone?

Who is Steve Jobs?

Being first is important, but I would imagine that very few of us know who that first inventor actually was. Most all of us know the impact Steve Jobs had.

So who is the GOAT?

Actually these things are all equally silly. Different people play different roles at different times. Trying to compare them over the span of even a few generations makes no sense.

30 minutes ago, Abriael said:

Microsoft Flight Simulator's contribution to this industry is far from being just "the visuals," nor the visuals are the most relevant part of it. 

Precisely. Anyone who still claims MSFS is just about visuals in 2024 is beyond help.

In my many years of simming, I've never seen such a thriving ecosystem of third-party support, offering enhancements that surpass what we could have imagined just a few years ago—often for free.

Thank you, Jörg and ASOBO, for developing such an excellent base simulator for the mass market that also caters to hardcore enthusiasts. While perfection is unattainable, 2024 will surely bring us many steps closer.

6 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

@Abriael, I’m not sure why you felt the need to post such a lengthy reply to my brief post. We all use the simulator of our choice. MSFS is not mine.

Because your point echoed a common misconception which entirely misses the point of what MSFS brought to the table. 

I'm not sure how anyone's simulator of choice has anything to do with the topic of this thread. 

Just now, Abriael said:

Because your point echoed a common misconception which entirely misses the point of what MSFS brought to the table. 

I'm not sure how anyone's simulator of choice has anything to do with the topic of this thread. 

Look at the title of this topic. My responses have been related to that. I’m not getting into a discussion about a sim I currently have no intention of buying.

3 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Look at the title of this topic. My responses have been related to that. I’m not getting into a discussion about a sim I currently have no intention of buying.

So why are you here then? (Genuine question)

Edited June 23, 20241 yr by MarcG

10 minutes ago, GCBraun said:

Thank you, Jörg and ASOBO, for developing such an excellent base simulator for the mass market

... said Natya Nadella, when he saw the latest sales report: 15 million x $ 60,- , about 1 billion $ in sales, making it the most profitable MSFS ever. 😄

Edited June 23, 20241 yr by turbomax

Yeah the whataboutism is not necessary. I played FS2002 and FSX for years and never knew who Atwick was. Props to him for sure but it is acceptable to see Jorg as the biggest name in flight simming now because he is the face of the biggest flight sim ever made.

10 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Look at the title of this topic. My responses have been related to that. I’m not getting into a discussion about a sim I currently have no intention of buying.

Your purchasing intentions are your own business. 

You made a point in the thread that seriously underestimates Jorg's contribution to flight simulation (which is the toic of this thread), so I felt the need to correct it. You asked me why, and I explained exactly that. That's all. 

Edited June 23, 20241 yr by Abriael