Sooooo, what do we do now?

[virtualstuff 754]

>Geofa, Lou,>>I'm sure you guys mean well, but the repeated cost comparisons>to real-world flying (and aircraft ownership) in response to>>they have spent $50 or $5000.>>Jordan MooreI get sometimes a headache of the negative explanations or moaning etc...I don't have myself an aircraft and probably will always have my virtual one I hope lolAs for my pilot aviation dreams it depends on Flight simulation or the several times I was in the cockpit of my father his F104 in active duty way back then lolI find it sometimes funny to read and can use the argument if spending some cash for my virtual hobby lol... My point is just help each other or contribute to this hobby in one way or the other with our passion...Instead of complaining in a forum for a comparison related to a small game...I'm for one glad to hear sometimes the real stories too ;-)http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/awf1/sign.jpg

[Erv Moore 21]

I do appreciate Real World Pilots and have a great respect for them except for the Fighter Jocks (they are nuts especially the ones I use to scuba dive with)I got to work with and know over 30 odd years. Regarding Flt Sim, we can all gain from your experience. Having said that, A Big Thank You and hoping you will continue with your inputs. erv

[Guest delta_one]

Even though this is a flight simulator forum, i actually don't mind seeing occasional posts about the costs of airplane ownership in the real world as it helps to put things somewhat into perspective and also that nothing is perfect. But as far as FSX is concerned, i've decided to skip this one and stay with FS9. Just my two bits -:)

[N400QW 205]

"If you can "master" some of the VOR navigation in the confort of your FS home, this will save you paying to fly to train on that for real isn't it?"Same here Geof. This was before training and I was just experimenting. For some reason it wasn't registering until I spent a lot of sim hours experimenting and it finally dropped into the right slot.After that I started my training. My instructor started VOR Nav instruction and I nailed first time. He asked if I had prior training and my answer was only on my own with the simulator. His answer was let's try a few scenarios and after that was complete he said Ok, let's move to another area of your training, you have this part down:-) Saved a lot of flight hours on that alone.

[Bob Scott 7,716]

The US Navy issues MSFS to its naval aviator students in aviation indoctrination. MSFS is a far better training tool for basics like gauge reading than the paper-card RMI I used 30 years ago. I taught USAF student pilots in a T-38 simulator with a clunky terrain model board display that flew a video camera over a cheesy model diorama...I'd have killed to have a tool like FS available to show transition to landing at minimums, for example--something FS with the right add-ons does far better than the technology we used to train the real-world pilots that won the Cold War. I really don't care if it's an FAA-accepted training tool...I used flight simulation with MSFS, ELITE and others to keep my head in the game when I was in military staff and school assignments between flying tours. Was it a substitute for real flying time? No, of course not. But it helped...immensely. With both proficiency and morale. And it still does.But the real issue here is that of wanting to see individually affordable microsimulation live up to its potential...it's very disappointing to see all the work that went into producing the newest generation of MSFS and then see a result that is markedly less useful than the version that preceded it. Let's face it...the product (FSX) never lived up to its fanfare, much of which started with the a really excited user association even before anyone outside of ACES had a first glimpse of FSX.MSFS provides a platform that can give folks that will never ever have a chance of sitting in the pilot seat in a 747, F-4, or Nimbus a pretty decent idea of what it looks like. It gives those of us lucky enough to have once done it for real a means to keep the dream alive. And it gives people trying to claw their way up the ladder to get there a cost-effective tool to learn and practice some of the basics. Owning your own light plane and spending $$thousands flying and fixing it on the weekend won't give you a feel for the accelerated timing when flying a 767 at 480 knots true, or of managing the energy of a heavy jet in a descent, or of what it's like to fly as part of a crew in a transport-category airplane. MSFS-based microsimulation can do some of those things...much better, in fact that putting around the skies by yourself in a r/w Piper Dakota.Today, IMHO, the best all-around platform to do all that is still FS2004 augmented by the wealth of available add-ons. FSX is a partially-cooked and failed attempt to improve on FS2004. I'm disillusioned with FSX, but thankful that I still have FS9 and the innovations that still appear daily for it. And the innovations I continue to contribute will be for FS9, not for FSX.Soooooo, what do we do now? We can continue to struggle with FSX knowing that major problems we have today won't be fixed because the ACES team is moving on. Or we can drop back five and punt...and stick with what works while we hope for a better second attempt in the form of FS11.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-VSantiago de Chile

[Mike T 208]

Geof:I wholeheartedly agree that MSFS can be a great replacemnt for real world flying if one is no longer able to (its kept me sane for the last 10 years or so). I also agree that FS can be a very effective training tool for an introduction to flying as well as cockpit awareness, IFR familiarity, et al...but in the same token can spawn some extremely bad habits.As an aside: One of the biggest gripes I have with students who are going for their PP ticket and have spent a lot of time with FS is the fact that they tend to keep their eyes in the cockpit instead of out. You don't drive that way and you cannot fly that way. Its a constant that I've seen and a habit that's very hard to break.Before the advent of 3D pits, all one had was a 2D pit taking up most of the screen. This is great for pilots going for their intstrument ticket but horrible for VFR and everyday flying. You know as well as I that you keep your eyes OUTSIDE of the pit as much as possible, scanning your surroundings. FSers tend to babysit the instruments which is a BIG no-no. Regards,Mike T.

[Geofa 108]

Yes I've heard that quite a bit.In my case-I need a B55 Baron in Fs-there hasn't been one yet!http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[Mike T 208]

BTW, I am extremely jealous of your B55...a real sports car! I've finally scraped up enough Sheckles to look at going after a late 80-something 172RG so I can at least cruise at 140kts (my car has a higher potential cruising speed LOL!).You need to point that Barron of yours down to New Lenox Airport in the Chicago Suburbs one day (pen me in on the waiting list ;-) )Regards,Mike T.

[Guest JeanLuc_]

You bring a valid point Mike with bad habits, especially this one "heads down in the cokpit". My take on that, is that the fault is not flight sim as a flight sim, it is fligth sim with the limitation of consumer devices: a single diagonal limited flat screen.Take fligth sim and use it with both a front end display (panel) and a projection display behind (outside), and you can effectively avoid bad habits of looking in the cokpit to some extent.Or more recently, use Trak IR kind of devices and the same platform shows it can be effective not having people look down in the panel.Flight Sim conceptually do save money for real world training, and paired with correct display devices, can also be effective for learning situational awareness look-out-the-window habits.

[Geofa 108]

Yeah-maybe Ron could join in for a mini flyin for lunch-sounds like a plan!http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[Geofa 108]

All I know is I can't wait for your products for fsx Jean Luc.What a useful way to learn to use it in the sim when one has time to concentrate and try things out.I have a friend I ride safety pilot for who got a garmin 430. He took off-pushed a button and suddenly all the airspace was off. He twiddled for the first 10 minutes of the flight when he could have better been doing something else-and then I twiddled and finally figured it out 15 minutes later when I could have been doing something more useful(I use a kln94 so am not that familiar with a 430). Would be nice to get used to the unit in the sim rather the real plane for many obvious reasons.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[N400QW 205]

>Yeah-maybe Ron could join in for a mini flyin for>lunch-sounds like a plan!>http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpg>>My blog:>http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/Sounds great guys. I'm just downstate at 1 H2 in Effingham so a little crosscountry flight sounds like a winner. I'll need to do a lookup for Lennox though, is it on the southside? Maybe get Jim Rhoads to fly over from Indiana as well:-) Mike, trying to remember...didn't we have private conversations a few months back on some other matters? PM me if you remember.

[Geofa 108]

Airnav has New Lenox as a private heliport-LL12?!Gyy is only 8nm NW...http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[N400QW 205]

Hmm, so it does...Looks like Gary or one of the other fields might work. Bill Leaming is over in Hammond and could join us as well:-)

[MD83 1]

HiI know that I'm skipping FSX altogether. Too many headaches, and too much sand ...