Flight Model Comparison 2024 vs 2020 - Unexpected Results?

[Alec]

Got access to the Tech Alpha 2024 as did everyone else, and the first thing I went on to test is of course the Flight Model. Personally MFS2020 has such good Visuals I would never consider switching to 2024 because of that. But FlightModel has always been the known weak point of FS2020.

I read reports of improvement of Flight Feeling from several users, and I questioned why I didn't notice these improvements, to me the sim feels just as MSFS2020 does in the air. Ground Handling is a whole other topic ,this I can confirm is a major improvement over the very very bad MSFS2020 Ground Physics.

So, I did some Flight Testing Maneuvers that are used in real life to determine Airplanes Stability, such as Fast Kick of the Rudder, and Fast Elevator Impulse, and immediately release all controls to neutral,  to determine not only the amplitude of the movement, but most importantly the frequency between cycles and how much does it take to dampen the oscillations back to equilibrium. I did so in the only planes I could, XCub and Cessna 172.

 

To my surprise, my findings are not what I expected. I don't have data to compare precisely, since MSFS2024 still isnt allowing Dev Mode to extract data, but visually, MSFS2024 seems to have more directional (Yawing / Rudder) stablity than MSFS2020 in both planes. That is what we would mention in an informal conversation as "twitchyness", the rubber band feeling of applying a control and the airplane going back to equilibrium. If this is too fast, and dampens in too little oscillations, we have this overestimated stability that makes planes not too much of a pleasure to fly, as it is constantly reacting back to our controls like a fast spring.

Longitudinal Stability is much worse. This has been a big surprise to me, but MSFS2024 has much greater Longitudinal Stability in both planes, the twichyness is much more noticeable. This makes a considerable impact on the flying qualities of the planes. 

Of course, this is still Tech Alpha, and things can change, but I am doing my comparison with what Asobo is giving us, and based on this limited exposure to the new Sim, in terms of Flight Model Behavior in the Air, I have to say I see a trend in the wrong direction here. The Feeling of Flight of small Prop Planes that are included in the MSFS2024 Alpha has been a downgrade from what we have currently in MSFS2020 in my point of view.

I expect the first argument to be said is that "Modders and 3rd Party Developers Will do much better than default planes" but this is not the point, the point is that I find it worrying to have inferior quality of flight behavior in planes that exists in FS2020 and has been mentioned as improved in several areas for MSFS2024. Of course, only in November we will know for sure.

I definitely hope this can get improvements until launch!

[jcomm]

Amen to that Alexis !

I couldn't put it better, and when I started to read reports of some users that the aircraft felt totally different I rushed testing the two props, just to find exactly what you found...

Well, not exactly because indeed I don't agree that ground feels better either. What I found in the taildragger was that trick that was introduced somewhere along MSFS 2020 Sim Updates where authors can modulate the effect of ground x-wind component making it rapidly converging to NIL bellow a given taxi speed ... So if you set a considerable X-Wind component, your taildragger (didn't yet test it with the C172) will taxi straight away until it reaches above the "trigger" taxi speed... 

For me, the two props felt if not equal, even worst than in MSFS 2020.

[Muds]

100% agree with your feelings, and you really really well explained the thing, something i've had hard time explaining to ppl that never flew an airplane.

[lwt1971]

Ok so that's interesting since this is the first report I'm hearing of flight dynamics actually being worse than 2020, let alone being the same. Given all the other reports saying the opposite I wonder if there is anything specific to your set up. Does this tech alpha have the flight model setting and is it by any chance set to legacy mode for you? Assuming it's not something to do with controls set up either.

Anyways, thanks for the report.. would be good to keep hearing from others who have the alpha.

Edited October 13, 2024 by lwt1971

[Alec]

Thank you for the feedback so far!

I am no Aeronautical Engineer, far from it, but after many years of interest regarding aerodynamics , I find complex formulas and concepts can be translated to much simple terms that anyone can understand, and thats how I always try to learn about these subjects, translate them to a way my brain can understand!

About my Controls, I ALWAYS set them up the same way in any sim. Linear 1:1 Correlation. No Curves, No Added Lag, Sensitivity, so what I get in Sim is a perfect translation of what I am doing with my controls

 

[sd_flyer]

I did some tests again this morning. My control settings got messed up again. Not sure why! 😞 First of all Cessna yoke wouldn't go past 60 degrees left or right. Not sure if it's animation problem or joystick settings. There are  definite improvements  in P-factor and torque. However, I thoroughly tested 172 I can't fly Cub same control setting brings oversensitive controls. 

I selected Carrier to see what up. My controls got reset to "ground zero" super sensitive although when I look at control setup everything looks as I set before. Defiantly some odd intermittent problems!

[ryanbatc]

I'm a pilot of single GA irl and worked in a tower as a controller for over a decade (observing traits and characteristics of numerous aircraft types).

These conversations are so subjective.  Mainly because the type of physical controller users have varies so much.  The quality difference between my ancient FFB2 sidewinder (yes it's still kicking) and a Virpil grip and base is monumental.

And then you have adjustment curves in the sim itself.

With my ancient peripherals, all sims tend to have overly twitchy general aviation light - medium aircraft flight models.  

I found the C172 to feel nicer/more realistic in 2024 vs 2020 or even xp12.  But similar to this thread, others will feel different.

The best flight model in my experience was the old Realair Lancair Legacy in FSX.  It could correctly handle a forward slip / crosswind landing beautifully.

[sd_flyer]

1 minute ago, ryanbatc said:

I'm a pilot of single GA irl and worked in a tower as a controller for over a decade (observing traits and characteristics of numerous aircraft types).

These conversations are so subjective.  Mainly because the type of physical controller users have varies so much.  The quality difference between my ancient FFB2 sidewinder (yes it's still kicking) and a Virpil grip and base is monumental.

And then you have adjustment curves in the sim itself.

With my ancient peripherals, all sims tend to have overly twitchy general aviation light - medium aircraft flight models.  

I found the C172 to feel nicer/more realistic in 2024 vs 2020 or even xp12.  But similar to this thread, others will feel different.

The best flight model in my experience was the old Realair Lancair Legacy in FSX.  It could correctly handle a forward slip / crosswind landing beautifully.

I’m totally agree with you Ryan! I’m not aeronautical engineer either. As mentioned in other thread I’m owner of 172P. Im also  commercial pilot and flight instructor. I princely  instruct in different kinds of 172 (mostly in B,N,M,P sometimes in S and R models )

[Rimshot]

1 hour ago, Alec said:

but visually, MSFS2024 seems to have more directional (Yawing / Rudder) stablity than MSFS2020 in both planes. That is what we would mention in an informal conversation as "twitchyness", the rubber band feeling of applying a control and the airplane going back to equilibrium.

To be honest I find it very hard to spot the difference; I wouldn't be able to convincingly state MSFS2024 is worse in this regard. In my experience it looked very similar, but twitchy indeed. (In real life I don't think I would try applying full rudder quickly and then releasing it the same way, because it is stressful for the aircraft).

 

1 hour ago, Alec said:

Of course, this is still Tech Alpha, and things can change, but I am doing my comparison with what Asobo is giving us, and based on this limited exposure to the new Sim, in terms of Flight Model Behavior in the Air, I have to say I see a trend in the wrong direction here. The Feeling of Flight of small Prop Planes that are included in the MSFS2024 Alpha has been a downgrade from what we have currently in MSFS2020 in my point of view.

I don't feel this as strongly as you. The overall feel of the C172 in the tech alpha is better than the one in MSFS2020.

 

22 minutes ago, ryanbatc said:

These conversations are so subjective.

This. I just proved it 😁

[Alec]

Hmmmm. There are subject aspects of Flight Testing. Sure. You cant quantify in numbers certain aspects, only an experienced pilot can put into words what is felt, in a way no mathematician ever could.

But... 

There are other aspects that aren't open to subjectivity. My test is such. This is done on real Flight Testing Sessions to determine the Stability Derivatives of a plane, and this is not open to any subjectivity. Doesnt matter what my controls are, what matters is what the airplane is doing aerodynamically. You can easily notice how faster after a quick Elevator Input the Cessna 172 returns to steady compaerd to MSFS2020. This would happen with any controller, with a keyboard, gamepad, etc. it is not influenced by any controller. That is why its important to return control quickly to neutral after the input, you remove any pilot interference, only the Physics are acting on the airplane.

BTW I have a VKB Sim GunFighter Base, but this really doesnt matter as I mentioned above, what matters is what happened after my controls are back to neutral. This could have been a Wind Gust instead of my Controls Moving, and the reaction would have been the same.

[RobJC]

Don't worry I am sure it is just the alpha version that is the cause. The release version will be perfect.  

[Lucky38i]

Personally I never really got the point of using default aircraft to test the fidelity of a FM. The FBW A32NX was about 6 or so months of work on the FM alone, on a single aircraft. I really doubt Asobo is going to dedicate the same effort for their what.. 20 aircraft? We do see Asobo putting great efforts for a select few of aircraft but we’ll have to wait for full release to really see which aircraft’s those are.

im more keen to seen to see what 3rd party devs can achieve within FS24 that can demonstrate its capabilities.

[ryanbatc]

Just now, Lucky38i said:

 

im more keen to seen to see what 3rd party devs can achieve within FS24 that can demonstrate its capabilities.

Ditto.  I rarely fly the basic defaults anyway.  It's the same in other sims.  It's rare to have a default aircraft with a superb flight model.

[sloppysmusic]

The op tested basic default planes in 2 different sims. The actual flight model of these defaults is unlikely to have changed at all if they are the same planes but the ENVIRONMENT has definitely been altered. It's a new SIM not ac addon. 

No addon dev would ever design a new plane until they had tested and tweaked defaults first as they all share the same sdk access. This is not a legacy sim where devs can just write their own flight model (sorry A2asimulations.com your work is fantastic but there's a reason you've only released one plane in 4 years for ms2020 and it's not even a new one). 

Until the full game is released and you can access developer mode in full all testing is guesswork. Thanks for the input Alec! 

[lwt1971]

49 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

The op tested basic default planes in 2 different sims. The actual flight model of these defaults is unlikely to have changed at all if they are the same planes but the ENVIRONMENT has definitely been altered.

 

Asobo likely won't have put in the same amount of effort on default aircraft FMs that a quality 3rd party dev would, but then again who knows. What we know for a fact however is that their C172 and other default aircraft use CFD for their FMs, and Asobo have at the very least taken advantage of the newer more detailed aircraft surface geometry in 2024, so at least that as changed.

And we also know ground handling has changed.. but not sure if it's global (partially or fully), or if each aircraft's FM needs to be updated to take advantage of 2024's revamped ground handling. 

Edited October 13, 2024 by lwt1971