40 minutes ago, Gazzareth said:

If you owned it you might understand. 

Fenix uses ProSim, so the heavy lifting is done outside of the sim. PMDG does it all in the sim.

PMDG also follows the SDK so it works on both platforms, Fenix is only on PC.

 

G

Whilst the external application helps with debugging, and for sure we'd be in a similar boat without the WASM debug tools if we were internal, I'd like to correct one thing: we do follow the SDK. Microsoft built something specifically for our usecase many years ago called SimConnect, it's the same API that GSX, Navigraph, PMDG and many other add-ons use - and is part of the SDK, along with the exe.xml functionality that goes with it. To be on XBOX/Marketplace isn't just following the SDK, it's following the SDK but only using specific parts of it. The ony difference between how we use it and how PMDG use it is both the core language of our code (C# vs C++) and that we run our code externally. Unfortunately the path from C# to WASM is... start again, whereas C++ is much more straight-forward; one of our developers actually converted a full C++ aircraft codebase to WASM in about a week for an external contract, if that gives you an idea of the difference.

With regards to FS2024, by far the biggest change we've seen is not the code execution, but the approach to artwork. If you want to export an aircraft's visual model natively via the FS2024 SDK like we've done, it's a huge undertaking. The LOD handling is different, the emissives are different, the lights are different, the way materials are handled is different. There's also a whole new texture format to contend with (.ktx2) which will obviously mean existing exported liveries in .dds format from 2020 will need a re-export. We've managed to work through and around a ton of these issues and it wasn't at all straight-forward, so I really wouldn't hold it against any developer struggling here.

I hope that provides an insight to what us devs are staring down the barrel of when it comes to FS2020 -> FS2024.

Edited November 27, 20241 yr by FNX_Dave

9 minutes ago, FNX_Dave said:

Whilst the external application helps with debugging, and for sure we'd be in a similar boat without the WASM debug tools if we were internal, I'd like to correct one thing: we do follow the SDK. Microsoft built something specifically for our usecase many years ago called SimConnect, it's the same API that GSX, Navigraph, PMDG and many other add-ons use - and is part of the SDK, along with the exe.xml functionality that goes with it. To be on XBOX/Marketplace isn't just following the SDK, it's following the SDK but only using specific parts of it. The ony difference between how we use it and how PMDG use it is both the core language of our code (C# vs C++) and that we run our code externally. Unfortunately the path from C# to WASM is... start again, whereas C++ is much more straight-forward; one of our developers actually converted a full C++ aircraft codebase to WASM in about a week for an external contract, if that gives you an idea of the difference.

 

Would it be fair to say that PMDG's code is more "coupled" to the MSFS SDK than Fenix is? Since you are a software developer yourself, I think you know what I mean by the term "coupled."

It seems like PMDG's code is more "coupled" and interdependent with the MSFS SDK than Fenix is.

Just now, abrams_tank said:

Would it be fair to say that PMDG's code is more "coupled" to the MSFS SDK than Fenix is? Since you are a software developer yourself, I think you know what I mean by the term "coupled."

It seems like PMDG's code is more "coupled" and interdependent with the MSFS SDK than Fenix is.

I really couldn't speak on their behalf or comment on their code. I will say, they've been in this game a long time and have been through many new simulator releases that required porting their code - I'd imagine their code is very well written to be as resilient as possible to these sorts of changes and highly refined at this point to avoid any 'gotchas' by being too reliant on one specific SDK.

26 minutes ago, FNX_Dave said:

Whilst the external application helps with debugging, and for sure we'd be in a similar boat without the WASM debug tools if we were internal,

Please do not overlook this statement folks...   This is PMDG's biggest issues.  They do not have the WASM debug tools and that IS on Asobo.  

PMDG as a marketplace provider also does not have the liberty of going down the "experimental" route or not supporting it when it is on marketplace.  

Kudos to Fenix for having the capabilities, talent and resources to get so much done and release as experimental for the betterment of the community but to bash PMDG is ingenuine and a disservice when you analyze all the facts and the different business models. 

I also just want to say thank you to Fenix and the team for all they have done since "flying" onto the market (pun intended) and for posts like the one quoted below and the one above as well as Aamir for their excellent communication.  It really is refreshing and it really make me want to pull out my wallet and a sidestick instead of my Brunner yoke 😉  Everything the Fenix team has done and communicated has been absolutely top notch. 

👏👏👏

8 minutes ago, FNX_Dave said:

I really couldn't speak on their behalf or comment on their code. I will say, they've been in this game a long time and have been through many new simulator releases that required porting their code - I'd imagine their code is very well written to be as resilient as possible to these sorts of changes and highly refined at this point to avoid any 'gotchas' by being too reliant on one specific SDK.

Edited November 27, 20241 yr by psolk

If Randazzle and Nuemann have a such a good working relationship, then this should have been sorted out months ago, but if they don't... 

11 minutes ago, Drumcode said:

If Randazzle and Nuemann have a such a good working relationship, then this should have been sorted out months ago, but if they don't... 

And immediately it's Randazzle's fault...  Right back to the nonsense.  Did you even read what FNX_Dave wrote or just jump in to name call?  

To fix it for you "Or if Asobo did include the required tools this could have been resolved" but again don't let facts get in the way of name calling and making baseless claims that this somehow comes down to a personal relationship...  🤦‍♂️

Edited November 27, 20241 yr by psolk

6 minutes ago, Drumcode said:

If Randazzle and Nuemann have a such a good working relationship, then this should have been sorted out months ago, but if they don't... 

I am far from a PMDG apologist, but I don't think such remark is accurate. Nuemann responds to Microsoft. PMDG in this particular case is collateral in the bigger scale of things. As big as PMDG's influence on the "serious" simmer/hobby and the entire FS ecosystem might be, to Microsoft/Asobo that is irrelevant (as to delay the launch of a product such as MSFS 2024) regardless of how good their relationship might be.

Surely it's in MS/Asobo's interests to give PMDG the help they need, After all if they cast their minds back to 2020's development and did not notice the big influx of simmers once the PMDG, Fenix, Just Flight, etc etc addons arrived in the sim. would be a terrible oversight.

11 minutes ago, psolk said:

Did you even read what FNX_Dave wrote or just jump in to name call?  

Settle down. Did I name call? 

1 hour ago, Drumcode said:

Settle down. Did I name call? 

Well in my eyes referring to someone by a name that is meant as a backhanded insult to their personality or style opposed to their actual name is name calling.  So yes.  

And there is nothing to settle down over, it's just old to me how people jump in to every PMDG thread to bash them even in this case when another developer pointed out the issues and especially the people who join for nothing other than to throw mud at Robert Randazzo individually because they don't like him.  

I don't like Elon Musk.  I don't buy Tesla's.  That simple.  

Hmm, think I'll skip this update if there are only "changes requested by Microsoft."

If it ain't broke...

49 minutes ago, psolk said:

Well in my eyes referring to someone by a name that is meant as a backhanded insult to their personality or style opposed to their actual name is name calling.  So yes.  

It's an industry standard nick name, not an insult. Relax and take the stick out. 

9 minutes ago, Drumcode said:

It's an industry standard nick name, not an insult. Relax and take the stick out. 

What a load of nonsense it's an industry standard LOL!!   It's one of many names made up right here at Avsim that people who don't care for his writing style or personality call him.

It's certainly not how he is referred to in official industry publications or on the PMDG forums, far from an "industry standard" but you pulled that out of where my stick is apparently stuck LOL 

Agree to disagree and go our separate ways.  

1 hour ago, psolk said:

Well in my eyes referring to someone by a name that is meant as a backhanded insult to their personality or style opposed to their actual name is name calling.  So yes.  

And there is nothing to settle down over, it's just old to me how people jump in to every PMDG thread to bash them even in this case when another developer pointed out the issues and especially the people who join for nothing other than to throw mud at Robert Randazzo individually because they don't like him.  

I don't like Elon Musk.  I don't buy Tesla's.  That simple.  

It’s hilarious how people always come to the defense of pmdg.

They bring much of the criticism on themselves in the way they operate. Stop telling us why your product doesn’t work for MSFS2924. Just get it done and stop making a drama out of it!

There are so many good alternatives around now I don’t necessarily have to have there stuff!

Edited November 27, 20241 yr by tpete61

Just another excuse for pmdg to say its not our fault but we are going to have to charge for you to use the products you have probably paid for 5 or 6 times, if you had p3d as well. In msfs 2024

Funny how the dc6 was probably the least popular product from pmdg  is the most compatable!! Nothing to do with the fact that they know they would get very little in the way of funds from people wanting to use it in 2024 to warant resources in making it fully usable, so they will tell you its currently their most compatable product.

Would'nt really surprise me if they hope to sell a few copies in the process.

They will only ever make 737,747,777 on a rinse and repeat cycle for each msfs version

Certainly just as good or better companies out there now. Ifly, fenix to name but 2 

If any of them can compete with the triple or 74 from pmdg then this company could well end up going the same way as boeing are heading if they are not careful.