38 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

Yes I understand that well lol I was referring to a manual WAYPOINT as in intersecting a route BETWEEN 2 vors or to just intercept radial say 75 miles out., or outbound from one and turn 90 left at my decided intercept between them (use dme to know when near)

Got it, thanks for clarifying! 👍

I think one day I might do a full write up of the differences between the default sim ap vor behaviour and when the gps is installed in an ac. Installed as in ap code is handled by WT and not default. There is no difference in picking a livery without, it's IN the ac config code (wish I knew where...one day I will find out!)

This means planes like the JF F28 and the freeware F27 will use the WT ap code for vor nav regardless of whether you see a physical gps in the cockpit.

Without going into conspiracy theories, A2A have ONE plane in the sim, the Comanche. It has a very limited AP that cannot track vor or gps very well at all laterally. Now.....they MUST know about the ap issue. It would make sense for a dev like A2A who, unlike PMDG, refuse to compromise their planes, to bypass the gps wrecking ball entirely by just using a very basic ap that won't track very well. They said it's because they just chose the very old ap they put in there, where most real world Comanches would definitely have more modern ap units. Conjecture there but well played if so A2A!

The F27 v1 is now the only plane I can confirm has had the WT gps left out entirely, the dev even explained in the original manual why.

It behaves like no other in the sim and I love it!

It always intercepts, from any angle if you want and even at 90 degrees needle centred. If you want to intercept close to approach and need exact point it WILL not intercept until reaching radial for the VOR but due to different behaviour on what appeared to be a LOC I will have to test LOC/ILS next.

The gps ap will always swing to 45 degree intercept even if you are 50 miles away, so cutting off a lot of the route. IRL you would do this manually but we are testing ap here and just that. 

Most precision approaches use ILS and a VOR/DME and/or ADF to get you to the initial fix where the precision part takes over. This is important as without LITERAL precision getting to that exact fix via VOR/DME you could not even START the actual precision part of the approach. 

I am very confident using this plane close up around mountain approaches in zero visibility down to minimums. BRAVO!

I have now installed (its a button click code is same) the GNS530 in the F28 as it makes no difference leaving it out. The VOR is poor and works like the new F27.

I first got the the steam gauge bug back in FSX doing the 'impossible' IFR lessons and exam. I recall my first zero vis flights in the RealAir Dukes over Florida, gripping and exciting. They WORKED. I just had to figure out HOW! :D

I might be the only person, or one of a VERY few who cares in 2024 about accurate VOR/ILS navigation with those funny round dials, but I think we should always be given the option to choose between one or the other method at installation maybe. I'm not the first to ask this.

BTW I regularly fly the PMDG 737 and 777 using VOR/DME only. They work well too as no sign of the WT gps in their custom code! 777 has no VOR LOC of course it's all manual :D. The 737 ap can also be trusted completely using raw data.

 

59 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

It would make sense for a dev like A2A who, unlike PMDG, refuse to compromise their planes, to bypass the gps wrecking ball entirely by just using a very basic ap that won't track very well.

I think the main difference with A2A is simply that their autopilot is custom-coded, so it's not affected by the changes the GNS 530 makes to the stock autopilot logic. I expect they'd custom-code a more complex custom autopilot too if that was in the plane they wanted to model; my understanding is that the Comanche contains a relatively simple autopilot because they reproduced the exact configuration of the airplane that Scott Gentile owns.

In any case, thanks for the work you've been doing investigating autopilot behavior on all of the different configurations of the F27. I hope to find some time at some point to see if anything can be done to disentangle the GNS 530 from the 1.1 version of the F27 - because it does otherwise have some improvements that I find appealing (first and foremost the cargo version).

6 minutes ago, martinboehme said:

I hope to find some time at some point to see if anything can be done to disentangle the GNS 530 from the 1.1 version of the F27

Yes me too. Joint project maybe like the HT levers!

I'd like the cargo too especially as with no cabin or night lighting it's rather pointless having a cabin. Freight opens up some fun legs too!

As I kept both versions it cannot be too hard to cut out the gps code from the new one as it was done real quick and has nothing to do with other improvements. I'd love to be able to do the same with the F28 too, that was so close to being my fave ac so far.

Well until we can get time for that, Happy New Year buddy! It's here already and should be with you soon!

 

1 hour ago, sloppysmusic said:

I might be the only person, or one of a VERY few who cares in 2024 about accurate VOR/ILS navigation with those funny round dials

I salute you sir for you devotion to real IFR flying.

( although your statement is so last year😉)

9 hours ago, jon b said:

I salute you sir for you devotion to real IFR flying.

( although your statement is so last year😉)

Thanks! Adding /subtracting 180 to /from numbers regularly keeps my senior brain from gathering dust! 

Useful link. Manual for ap from just flight f27 fsx (when devs could model actual real life ap units behavior rather than just their pixels) 

A bit harsh I guess as the Freeware works well in all but tuned nav mode. 

https://stormtossedclouds.wordpress.com/2017/10/15/the-fokker-f27-autopilot/

Nothing about intercept angles other than it works lol. 

Edited January 1, 20251 yr by sloppysmusic

15 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

Yes me too. Joint project maybe like the HT levers!

Sounds good!

15 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

Well until we can get time for that, Happy New Year buddy!

A Happy New Year to you too!

Well I've got a dentist apt in an hour so I expect rest of my day I'll be recovering 😬.. Ideal time to read up and probably start on this project! 

Been researching code comparing software. Already have a pro version of GoodSync but this looks more useful for comparing code differences. 

https://winmerge.org/?lang=en

First job, place copies of both versions in a new location, compare them then try to merge them into one new combined version with the new features excluding the gps code. 

I'm sure there will be complications but it'll be a great learning experience. Old free liveries had issues with new version as 3 of the steam guages had been changed so they were pink. Engine dials I believe. 

The 3 goals of the project are :

1) Produce fully working plane with updates and no new GPS code. 

2) Understand what was changed and how it altered the internal ap behaviour. 

3) Produce clear instructions on how to remove the GPS code from other planes without the presence of earlier versions with no GPS. (This would be the holy grail for me). 

I can't seem to edit the previous comment?

USEFUL DOCS:
Working Title dev instructions for adding WT GPS to addon ac.

https://www.workingtitle.aero/packages/gns/

Please note that aircraft developers may need to bring their aircraft in line with the latest autopilot code and CDI SimVar recommendations before the aircraft will be fully compatible with the GNS units. Aircraft that support a hot-swap between the GNS and other avionics systems (such as a third-party GTN navigator) are not currently supported, and users of those aircraft must either remove the third-party addon from the community folder or this version of the GNS from their Content Manager in MSFS. Developers should look at the GNS developer notes in the Guides section of our website.

https://www.workingtitle.aero/packages/gns/guides/GNS_Developer_Notes_v103.pdf

Win Merge is fantaastic! Wish I'd found it a DECADE ago :D

https://imgur.com/gallery/winmerge-example-compare-folder-files-screens-cdneC31

Edited January 2, 20251 yr by sloppysmusic
Added screenshots

I've seen a couple of mentions of FS2024 including mention of it working well, but I've hit a few issues I'm curious if others can confirm - it's possible I'm doing something wrong and will re-check the manual tonight.

• I can't find a way to flip the battery switch to ground power. In the videos I've watched, there is a clickspot on the trim indicators to get a screen to open where you can set ground power, but this doesn't appear to work in FS2024. While I can start on ship battery, I run into the next issue:
• After a few minutes, with both engines, inverters, generators and alternators on, I will lose some power. I'm not sure which bus, but the landing lights turn off as does the attitude indicator.
• Default bindings don't appear to work for the flaps (using the Honeycomb Bravo)

Otherwise, this has flown very well for me in FS2024. Anyone else had these issues and found any workaround?

On 1/2/2025 at 1:48 PM, sloppysmusic said:

Win Merge is fantaastic! Wish I'd found it a DECADE ago :D

https://imgur.com/gallery/winmerge-example-compare-folder-files-screens-cdneC31

On an interesting mildly conspiratorial note, the above post and screenshots I posted here have been wiped from existence on Imgur without a single note or comment or anything to say how and why. I posted views of 2 versions of config files from a freeware aircraft that anyone downloading could access. I guess code samples are too boring for them to allow. I need something more like "man gets hit in groin by football"!

 

On 1/14/2025 at 11:33 PM, dukeoflothier said:

I've seen a couple of mentions of FS2024 including mention of it working well, but I've hit a few issues I'm curious if others can confirm - it's possible I'm doing something wrong and will re-check the manual tonight.

• I can't find a way to flip the battery switch to ground power. In the videos I've watched, there is a clickspot on the trim indicators to get a screen to open where you can set ground power, but this doesn't appear to work in FS2024. While I can start on ship battery, I run into the next issue:
• After a few minutes, with both engines, inverters, generators and alternators on, I will lose some power. I'm not sure which bus, but the landing lights turn off as does the attitude indicator.
• Default bindings don't appear to work for the flaps (using the Honeycomb Bravo)

Otherwise, this has flown very well for me in FS2024. Anyone else had these issues and found any workaround?

same, my work around is starting the sim on the runway. from there on it's normal ops

Hi all,

I'm new to this forum, but not entirely new to flight simming.

Recently I started using this great model for flying in NeoFly, and it's really awesome to have this extra challenge not being able to just punch in a couple of navaids in a GPS and just sit there twiddling my thumbs during the majority of the flight.\

However, I am having some problems with the VOR./APP capabilities of the autopilot, which I assume are related to me not understanding completely what the different switches on the autopilot, glareshield and overhead panel radio stack do. The result is that oftentimes, the plane suddenly changes course when I dial in the frequency and OBS2 of the next VOR on radio 2, while I am under the impression that the AP is using NAV1 radio to follow the course set by OBS1 --> (A:AUTOPILOT NAV SELECTED, number) == 1

My first question is: what is the workflow when you want to fly inbound/outbound from one VOR to the next using the:

NAV radio 1 and 2 frequency settings

OBS course settings 1 (and 2?) on the glare shield

The left and right Radio 1-2 switches on the glare shield

The HDG mode of the AP

The VOR./APP mode of the AP

I watched some youtube videos on VOR navigation but could not find the crucial steps to hop over from one VOR to the next using 2 NAV radios and 2 OBS settings.

 

 

My second question is: how to efficiently manage climb and descent using A/S, ALT and TRIM functions in conjunction with throttle management?

Since there is no "Flight Level Change" function where you can simply dial in a climb speed and (optionally) have the luxury of capturing the desired altitude automatically resulting in the plane leveling off; I end up sometimes needing to use "ALT + Throttle back" to reduce the airspeed, then wait until the plane slowed down to the ideal climb speed, and then to resume my climb using "A/S + Throttle up".

Conversely, when I am working on the descent to destination airfield, I have some problem managing my descent rate when I use the A/S function of the autopilot in conjunction with Throttle down. So instead I tried to use the trim function, but the problem with the trim function is that it disables the VOR.APP 

Hope you guys have some tips for me to make flying this model even more fun and satisfying than it already is!

 

Greetings,

Scherm

On 7/1/2025 at 9:36 PM, Schermvlieger said:

However, I am having some problems with the VOR./APP capabilities of the autopilot, which I assume are related to me not understanding completely what the different switches on the autopilot, glareshield and overhead panel radio stack do. The result is that oftentimes, the plane suddenly changes course when I dial in the frequency and OBS2 of the next VOR on radio 2, while I am under the impression that the AP is using NAV1 radio to follow the course set by OBS1 --> (A:AUTOPILOT NAV SELECTED, number) == 1

That is indeed strange. It shouldn't do this, and doesn't do it for me. The autopilot VOR-APP mode always follows the course guidance from NAV1.

Here's a "recipe" for how I do VOR-to-VOR navigation in the Fokker 27.

First off, I set the left-hand radio switch to 1 and the right-hand radio switch to 2. This has the effect of displaying NAV1 on the captain's HSI and NAV2 on the FO's HSI, which is usually the most useful setup.

Just to make things concrete, let's say I'm inbound to KPT VOR/DME (108.4) on a course of 090, and the next leg I want to fly is from KPT to WLD VOR/DME (112.8) on a course of 030. (The VORs are fairly close together, so I'll assume the outbound and inbound course are the same.)

I would set NAV1 to 108.4 (KPT), NAV2 to 112.8 (WLD), and DME to 108.4 (there's just one DME receiver, and it has to be tuned separately). My left-hand course selector is set to 090 -- the course I'm currently tracking inbound to KPT -- and the autopilot is in VOR-APP mode. My right-hand course selector (for WLD) is set to 030, as that's the course I'll ultimately be tracking inbound to WLD on.

The general philosophy of the nav setup is: My NAV1 is tuned to the VOR I'm currently using to navigate (obviously, as that's the only nav radio that the autopilot can follow), and NAV2 is tuned to the next VOR that's coming up, as a kind of "preview". My DME is set to the same frequency as NAV1 .

Once I get within a few nautical miles of KPT, I'll prepare to turn onto the new outbound course. This needs to be done with the autopilot in heading mode -- you can't reliably do this in VOR-APP mode. So once I'm within a few nautical miles of KPT, I'll make sure the heading bug is set to my current heading, and then I'll switch the autopilot to heading mode. When I overfly the VOR, I'll turn my heading bug to the outbound course -- in this case 030 -- and I'll also set the left-hand course selector to 030. As the needle is very sensitive close to the station, I'll continue to fly outbound for maybe a minute until things have stabilized. I'll then look at whether I'm left or right of course and modify the heading selector appropriately to intercept the outbound radial. Once I'm on the radial, I'll switch the autopilot back to VOR-APP mode. I'm now tracking the radial outbound.

When I get to around the half-way point between KPT and WLD, I'll prepare to start tracking inbound to WLD. My right-hand HSI should already be showing me more or less on the inbound radial to WLD. Again, I'll switch the autopilot to heading mode, making sure that the heading bug is set to my current heading. I'll then tune NAV1 and the DME receiver to 112.8 (the frequency of WLD). The left-hand course selector is already set appropriately to 030. I should now see my inbound course guidance displayed on the left-hand HSI. If everything looks good, I can now re-engage VOR-APP mode on the autopilot, and I will now be tracking inbound to WLD.

If there was another leg coming up after WLD, I would now tune NAV2 to the frequency of the next VOR and set the right-hand course selector to the corresponding inbound course, and so on.

I hope this makes sense -- let me know if there's anything that's unclear.

As this is already quite a long post, I'll answer your question about climbs and descents in another post.

Edited July 2, 2025Jul 2 by martinboehme