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conflicting definition of circling approach???

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>I tired it in the F28 and it wasn't too bad. I wish I>could have fraps record more then 30 seconds though.I can fly under the Golden Gate Bridge at will on the computer as well. Go back into your books and review 91.175© and then try it again with wx set at minimums and that rule in mind.

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Yeah thats why I emphasized that it wasn't too bad. If I was just flying it myself I would probably shoot the approach straight in but if I was in the carriage of passengers it would be a circle to RWY 19

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>Yeah thats why I emphasized that it wasn't too bad. If I was>just flying it myself I would probably shoot the approach>straight in but if I was in the carriage of passengers it>would be a circle to RWY 19What if the wind was from the north? Would you then land with a tailwind on Rwy 19 because you are carrying passengers? Why would you even make that distinction between whether you were flying by yourself or whether you were carrying anybody else? I'm sensing that there is something you're not able to get your mind wrapped around. Just because the approach comes from the south and looks like a straight in to Rwy 01, does not mean you land straight in to Rwy 01. The approach is too steep to make a safe approach to Rwy 01 straight in. That is why it is labelled circling only. Even if you intend on landing Rwy 01, with or without passengers, the proper way to do it would be to enter a left traffic pattern for Rwy 01 from overhead the field after passing the missed approach point. Just because you are flying by yourself does not mean you should disregard 91.175.

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Thank you for the clarification KevinAu.That is what I *thought*--because a straight-in to runway 01 is strictly PROHIBITED as per the plate. And also as per testimonials who claim straight-ins are not done on Runway 01. Furthermore I have seen two videos of jets landing there, and they did a left-hand circle.Now, KevinAU; I have tried this Rwy 01 approach in an A321, and it was quite difficult to get the aircraft turned within that valley. You advise PASSING the MAP and actually turning over the field. That makes sense because it would give me more room to turn in the big jet. I did not do that, I started the turn at the MAP point which left me very little room to come around.Even at 180 KIAS, which was as slow as I wanted to go, it ate up the real estate fast.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2310 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 2.5-3-3-8 (1T), WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian case


Rhett

7800X3D ♣ 32 GB G.Skill TridentZ  Gigabyte 4090  Crucial P5 Plus 2TB 

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>>FYI to me it looks like not terrain thats limiting it to the E>but a security area (MHP1). There is another one SE of the>airport (MHP4). Again, I am assuming MHP is a security or>restricted area. Since this is the Honduran capital i think it>is a safe assumption.>Well, there is terrain to the E and especially the SE, which would absolutely prevent any sort of right-hand circle over in that quadrant. The MHP1 area is a military base which is right on the field on the east side. MHP4 must be another mil base because the city is N and W of MHP4.>I'll still take the river visual to 19 into DCA as my favorite>approach. Some of the GPS ones that are coming out look neat>with the curved segments, etc into airports like Palm>Springs....Now the trick is, can I get this approach programmed into FSX. I don't know if the AI aircraft can handle the circle. The default approach, the one ATC and the AI use, is straight-in to Rwy 01, and it results in terrain contact by the AI on final.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2310 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 2.5-3-3-8 (1T), WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian case


Rhett

7800X3D ♣ 32 GB G.Skill TridentZ  Gigabyte 4090  Crucial P5 Plus 2TB 

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>Thank you for the clarification KevinAu.>>That is what I *thought*--because a straight-in to runway 01>is strictly PROHIBITED as per the plate. And also as per>testimonials who claim straight-ins are not done on Runway 01.> Furthermore I have seen two videos of jets landing there, and>they did a left-hand circle.>>Now, KevinAU; I have tried this Rwy 01 approach in an A321,>and it was quite difficult to get the aircraft turned within>that valley. You advise PASSING the MAP and actually turning>over the field. That makes sense because it would give me>more room to turn in the big jet. I did not do that, I>started the turn at the MAP point which left me very little>room to come around.>>Even at 180 KIAS, which was as slow as I wanted to go, it ate>up the real estate fast.>>Rhett>>AMD 3700+ (@2310 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS>A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 2.5-3-3-8 (1T), WD>250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian caseI would even continue my descent upwind past the airport along the departure path of Rwy 01, taking full advantage of the entire circling area available to make as much of a full upwind, crosswind, downwind, base and final leg as possible. 180kts is kind of fast at this stage. You should be able to set the plane up at ref speed or the next maneuver speed up to perform the maneuver. Being slow is important in these confined situations.

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Guest CRJ700FO

>Well, there is terrain to the E and especially the SE, which>would absolutely prevent any sort of right-hand circle over in>that quadrant. there is terrain everywhere. the MSA shows the worst is to the NE. the SE is the lowest quadrant....>The MHP1 area is a military base which is right on the field>on the east side. MHP4 must be another mil base because the>city is N and W of MHP4.if you knew this before you should have told us. :-)based on the information you provided i would say a straight in to 1 on a VISUAL basis is ok per this SOLE plate. the circling you are describing is NOT part of the instrument approach, but is rather a local procedure for landing, and evidently any landing, on runway 1.this local circling procedure would be described in detail by your airline or a jeppesen airport familiarization chart as i would bet this is a SARA airport.FYI, 180KTS on a circle seems a little fast in an A321. based on all the information i have read here, i would fly over the MAP to the runway, fly the runway staying out of MHP1 and then simply fly a left traffic pattern to runway 1 staying within the basin, or whatever it is.i will check with some freight dogs i know that fly to central america and see what their procedures are for this airport.

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Guest CRJ700FO

>What if the wind was from the north? Would you then land with>a tailwind on Rwy 19 because you are carrying passengers? Why>would you even make that distinction between whether you were>flying by yourself or whether you were carrying anybody else? >I'm sensing that there is something you're not able to get>your mind wrapped around. Just because the approach comes>from the south and looks like a straight in to Rwy 01, does>not mean you land straight in to Rwy 01. The approach is too>steep to make a safe approach to Rwy 01 straight in. That is>why it is labelled circling only. Even if you intend on>landing Rwy 01, with or without passengers, the proper way to>do it would be to enter a left traffic pattern for Rwy 01 from>overhead the field after passing the missed approach point. >Just because you are flying by yourself does not mean you>should disregard 91.175.i think he was simply meaning flying it in the simulator.make no mistake, 91.175© is written generic (ie "normal manuevers") for a reason. what is a "normal" manuever? a normal for me, might be extreme for someone else.

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Guest CRJ700FO

>I would even continue my descent upwind past the airport along>the departure path of Rwy 01, taking full advantage of the>entire circling area available to make as much of a full>upwind, crosswind, downwind, base and final leg as possible. >180kts is kind of fast at this stage. You should be able to>set the plane up at ref speed or the next maneuver speed up to>perform the maneuver. Being slow is important in these>confined situations.each flap setting will have a minimum manuevering speed. i would fly it at that speed for the flap setting.

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>>i think he was simply meaning flying it in the simulator.>>make no mistake, 91.175© is written generic (ie "normal>manuevers") for a reason. what is a "normal" manuever? a>normal for me, might be extreme for someone else.From 3mi to the threshold at 2300 above the ground, you would take your shiny CRJ and land straight-in? Even in a Cessna 172, you'd need over 1000fpm descent to get down from that altitude once you see the runway from 2mi out. Is that a normal landing approach in a Cessna? I thought we were discussing an instrument approach procedure here since we were all referencing an approach chart. If it was a clear sunny day and you owned that jet, you can be my guest at winding your jet through the hills, eye level with the shanty shacks or doing a complete idle approach to land on that runway any which way you please. But since we are referencing an instrument approach plate, are we not discussing an instrument approach in instrument conditions here? And what makes you say to circle to Rwy 01 like that is a "local" procedure? It is *basic* instrument procedure. Basic instrument procedure taught to IFR students anytime you are making an approach to a runway which you can't descend to in a normal manner. I hate to ask this, but how extreme is normal for you anyways?

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>>each flap setting will have a minimum manuevering speed. i>would fly it at that speed for the flap setting.Riiight.... Just so we are not misunderstanding each other, in my ERJ, I would set up either Flaps 45 and landing Target speed (that's what we call it anyways) or the next one up wich would be Flaps 22 and 140kts, if I wanted to. I'm not sure how you interpreted the original message.

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Guest CRJ700FO

>From 3mi to the threshold at 2300 above the ground, you would>take your shiny CRJ and land straight-in? Even in a Cessna>172, you'd need over 1000fpm descent to get down from that>altitude once you see the runway from 2mi out. Is that a>normal landing approach in a Cessna? I thought we were>discussing an instrument approach procedure here since we were>all referencing an approach chart. If it was a clear sunny>day and you owned that jet, you can be my guest at winding>your jet through the hills, eye level with the shanty shacks>or doing a complete idle approach to land on that runway any>which way you please. But since we are referencing an>instrument approach plate, are we not discussing an instrument>approach in instrument conditions here? And what makes you>say to circle to Rwy 01 like that is a "local" procedure? It>is *basic* instrument procedure. Basic instrument procedure>taught to IFR students anytime you are making an approach to a>runway which you can't descend to in a normal manner. I hate>to ask this, but how extreme is normal for you anyways?1) in a cessna i could do a slip and make rwy 1 pretty well from 3sm out, especially with 6,000' of runway available to me.2) a CIRCLE to runway 1 on a VISUAL is indeed a local procedure in which i stated. make no mistake this is no "normal" circle to land. have you EVER done a circle to land where you fly an approach to mins, fly over the runway then do a 180 to reenter a downwind and then proceed to do another 180deg turn to land? i do not think so, this is a LOCAL situation dictating this and it is not *basic*.this is a highly irregular situation with this apprach plate and airport.

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Guest CRJ700FO

>Riiight.... Just so we are not misunderstanding each other,>in my ERJ, I would set up either Flaps 45 and landing Target>speed (that's what we call it anyways) or the next one up wich>would be Flaps 22 and 140kts, if I wanted to. I'm not sure>how you interpreted the original message.why are you so defensive?!?!?!so you are telling me when you circle here you will be at full flaps and gear down from MAP to runway, turn to left downwind, base, final? normally a circle is made with mid setting for flaps, gear up. then abeam final gear down, turn base, when landing is assured, final flaps, turn final and land.and yes EACH flap setting has a speed associated with it where NORMAL (there's that word again :-) ) manuevers are allowed. in our CRJ it is each associated min flap speed (which varies by weight) plus 10 knots. we use these all the time as we are driven home about saving gas and keeping the airplane clean for as long as possible.

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>>1) in a cessna i could do a slip and make rwy 1 pretty well>from 3sm out, especially with 6,000' of runway available to>me.>I almost was about to write "slip it in" as a joke earlier. I'd like to see you do that in your CRJ. And do that in a Cessna in the same situation on an IFR checkride.>2) a CIRCLE to runway 1 on a VISUAL is indeed a local>procedure in which i stated. make no mistake this is no>"normal" circle to land. have you EVER done a circle to land>where you fly an approach to mins, fly over the runway then do>a 180 to reenter a downwind and then proceed to do another>180deg turn to land? i do not think so, this is a LOCAL>situation dictating this and it is not *basic*.>>this is a highly irregular situation with this apprach plate>and airport.Yes, I have. Several times. Several places. For real and in training. One freight run I used to do took me to Ukiah. Inevitably, there were days when the vis was at or near minimums and I would not be able to descend straight in to the runway when I finally saw it. In which case I would simply enter into a circle maneuver back around to the runway. Dude, this is basic stuff your CFII should have taught you back when he introduced circling approaches to you. A circle to land is not only for a runway that is misaligned with your approach track. This should not be foreign to somebody like you who is supposedly a professional commercial pilot. The Navajo was a great plane, and I've made many space shuttle approaches in that thing, but space shuttle approaches, and slips, are not the type of normal stabilized approaches to landing that you do out of an instrument approach. There's a reason for TERPS criterias and why some approaches don't qualify as having straight in minimums. This approach is a good example of one.

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>>why are you so defensive?!?!?!>>so you are telling me when you circle here you will be at full>flaps and gear down from MAP to runway, turn to left downwind,>base, final? normally a circle is made with mid setting for>flaps, gear up. then abeam final gear down, turn base, when>landing is assured, final flaps, turn final and land.>>and yes EACH flap setting has a speed associated with it where>NORMAL (there's that word again :-) ) manuevers are allowed.>in our CRJ it is each associated min flap speed (which varies>by weight) plus 10 knots. we use these all the time as we are>driven home about saving gas and keeping the airplane clean>for as long as possible.Not defensive. Befuddled by your confusing comment would be a more accurate word. That's why I decided to speak more slowly, enunciate better and clarify that other post.Normally, on the ERJ, we configure gear down and flaps 22 (which is mid flaps) crossing the FAF and targeting 140kts on a circle to land. That's the configuration we maintain throughout. At our option we can also reconfigure flaps 45 (which is full flaps) and reduce our target speed to that for Flaps 45 at some later point in the circle maneuver. Or we could also land using Flaps 22 and its associated Target speed. So yes, we do circle with gear down and landing flap all set already. Saving gas is good, but as far as our training department is concerned, conducting a safe, stabilized approach is better.

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