conflicting definition of circling approach???

[Guest CRJ700FO]

>...by slipping. Seriously, on an instrument approach? Hey, I>used to have a good time in the pattern in a little Cessna 140>flying tight approaches where I'd slipped through a curving>final all the way to just about touchdown too. But to assert>that it is normal to break out of the clouds and fog and then>use a forward slip as your "normal rate of descent" to>touchdown? I'm looking through the chart and I can't find a>category or minima here for use with a slipping descent. If a>slip is what they considered normal, why isn't this a straight>in? The problem was that you disagreed that a circle is used>to land from a high gradient approach. There are approaches>out there, where you do have to circle all the way back around>to land on the runway. VOR-A to Hayward (California), another>one of those. Did it on my ATP ride. Same deal. Steep>descent, then circle back around. They're out there. Just>not at O'Hare.once again the slip was for a visual and in a cessna that i mentioned it.there not these circles at most passenger serviced airports (you seem to think i think ORD is the only airport in the country), Ukiah isn't one, neither is Hayward.most airlines will NOT do a circle at mins. again our mins for a circle are 1000-3. most will accept the 5-9kt tailwind and deal with that than a circle.> "a CIRCLE to runway 1 on a VISUAL is indeed a local>procedure in which i stated. make no mistake this is no>"normal" circle to land. have you EVER done a circle to land>where you fly an approach to mins, fly over the runway then do>a 180 to reenter a downwind and then proceed to do another>180deg turn to land? i do not think so, this is a LOCAL>situation dictating this and it is not *basic*.">>That's what you wrote, just in case you forgot what we were>bickering about.again these special reversals are due to terrain and are not normal. they are a subset of the overall circle to land. the modern GLS approach is right around the corner, soon circles will be a thing of the past (except where terrain is a factor).>What difference does it make? I don't care what your real>name is. Is it going to make a difference in your level of>respect or disrespect? Just treat everybody with the same>level of respect or disrespect on these forums and debate the>merits of the argument, not who or what you think somebody>is.no difference, i was curious where you get around.

[Mace 1,926]

I have now done this approach sucessfully several times in a Beech King Air, the Maule, and the A321.The key is, as KevinAU suggested, to overfly the field, and DO NOT start your left-hand pattern circle until AFTER passing the airport. This gives you enough room in the valley to fully execute your turn in a larger aircraft.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2310 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 2.5-3-3-8 (1T), WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian case

[KevinAu 441]

>>once again the slip was for a visual and in a cessna that i>mentioned it.>>there not these circles at most passenger serviced airports>(you seem to think i think ORD is the only airport in the>country), Ukiah isn't one, neither is Hayward.>>most airlines will NOT do a circle at mins. again our mins for>a circle are 1000-3. most will accept the 5-9kt tailwind and>deal with that than a circle.>Then what the heck are we discussing here? Are we discussing this approach in terms of VMC or IMC? Are we discussing what little Cessnas do or what transport jets do? I can't tell anymore. I thought we were originally discussing this plate as an instrument approach done by jets going into this airport at first. I gave an answer in that vein. You disagreed and argued that you'd rather slip it straight in. Fine, you want to talk small planes then, so I bring up examples using GA airports. And now you say that we are talking about big airports. I get the feeling that we will argue like children like this forever. If I say black, you will vehemently argue white. If I say white, you will argue black. You will say whatever necessary not to be proven wrong. That's the sense I get from you. This thread should just be locked if it is going to be like this in a discussion with you.>>again these special reversals are due to terrain and are not>normal. they are a subset of the overall circle to land.That makes no sense at all. Special reversal? You are making up terms now. It's just a circle to land. Like every other circle to land is. There is nothing special about the circle to land here. You circle to get down from an MDA that's too high just as you circle to get to the crossing runway. There's no difference, it's all just circling to land. Just because you *can* make a straight in, does not mean you should. What scares me is that you read the warning note as a suggestion, not a warning. Again, the warning note about extreme descent rates was a warning, not a suggestion. So I offered an aspect of circling approaches that you had never thought about until now. Take it as a learning experience. Even though you are a mighty CRJ700 FO, you can still learn. You'll never be able to make yourself a better pilot by reacting like this. Are you happy at being 1/4 of the pilot Chuck Yeager is?

[Murmur 3,941]

>I have now done this approach sucessfully several times in a>Beech King Air, the Maule, and the A321.>>The key is, as KevinAU suggested, to overfly the field, and DO>NOT start your left-hand pattern circle until AFTER passing>the airport. This gives you enough room in the valley to>fully execute your turn in a larger aircraft.Hi Rhett,have you tried it at minimums weather conditions?My problem is the runway is not or very hardly visible if visibility and ceiling are at minimums, since when I'm at MAP the runway is way below me, under the windshield (even in VC view, and in different aircrafts).Marco

[Guest CRJ700FO]

>Then what the heck are we discussing here? Are we discussing>this approach in terms of VMC or IMC? Are we discussing what>little Cessnas do or what transport jets do? I can't tell>anymore. I thought we were originally discussing this platefor the 4th time, a big jet will not do this at minimums, they will be limited to a higher value, which in some cases is VFR only, hence the VMC comments.>That makes no sense at all. Special reversal? You are making>up terms now. It's just a circle to land. Like every other>circle to land is. There is nothing special about the circle>to land here. You circle to get down from an MDA that's too>high just as you circle to get to the crossing runway. >There's no difference, it's all just circling to land. Just>because you *can* make a straight in, does not mean you>should. What scares me is that you read the warning note as a>suggestion, not a warning. Again, the warning note about>extreme descent rates was a warning, not a suggestion. So I>offered an aspect of circling approaches that you had never>thought about until now. Take it as a learning experience. >Even though you are a mighty CRJ700 FO, you can still learn. >You'll never be able to make yourself a better pilot by>reacting like this. Are you happy at being 1/4 of the pilot>Chuck Yeager is?to borrow your term, riiight. all this from me saying normal for one person isn't normal for the other hence the FAA ambiguousness.

[Mace 1,926]

I have not flown it in minimum conditions. I did slew to the MAP with minimum vis (2sm) just to see what it looked like. I use "W" command in the 2D cockpit view to get a better view sometimes. I could not see the airfield. slewing north, I could gradually make out the PAPI.When I hit the MAP I generally do gear down and a notch of flaps.I go at about heading 015 to keep west of the runway and avoid the military prohibited airspace. I like to initiate my left-hand pattern turn at about 3.0 DME north of the TNT VOR. This will give me some room to maneuver. Then I make a pretty sprightly left-hand turn to about heading 198 or 205 or so depending on winds. Keeping altitude above 5000 still. If you get below 5000 you will be close to people's laundry as someone said earlier in this thread. Plus you will want the altitude for when you start your turn to base.Then I fly pretty slow, flaps maneuvering speed + 10 knots or so. The next left turn to base I do a when I get a little ways past the runway end. I look out the left side at the runway to get an idea when to turn. To me this is truly the ART of this approach and the part where I make my virtual money...knowing when to start that last 180 degree turn to base and final, and knowing how much bank to use and when to use it, and knowing how much altitude to lose in the turn and when to lose it.I have been known to use "W" briefly to get an idea of things spatially. I know it may not be a purist thing to do, but in a simulator I feel there are limitations as to situational awareness that in a real cockpit a person might have.Plus you would have a co-pilot to give you airspeed or alt callouts if you wanted, for example...RhettAMD 3700+ (@2310 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 2.5-3-3-8 (1T), WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian case

[Mace 1,926]

Anyone gets MY thread locked and I'll be throwin bottles at you! :)I hope you pilotas test this approach out sometime in your sim. It's a lot of fun. I guess if you are used to doing it at EWR then it's no big deal. But then EWR doesn't have terrain or chickens and laundry to get caught in your landing gear.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2310 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 2.5-3-3-8 (1T), WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian case