Vista slow sales....headline from Tom's Hardware today...

[mgh 89]

"I really do wonder whether Microsoft fully realizes that what they have now started could prove to be the single most contentious issue ever to have challenged humanity." You believe that a computer operating system is more contentious that, say, nuclear wepons, terrorism, global warming, etc not to mention religion? You need to get away from your PC more.

[Guest Eek]

Charlie's post is the best I have ever read here at Avsim. In an age where liberty takes a back seat to "security", it's heartening to know there are still a few people who believe in freedom. Not the hollow shell of freedom that America has become, but true freedom.Cheers Charlie. :-beerchug ~EwingKATLMSI K8N Neo2 PlatinumAMD Athlon 64 3200+ 2.0 GHz2GB Corsair PC-3200 512x4 Dual Channel CL2.5 DDR DIMM eVGA nVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT 256MB DDR3Sound Blaster Audigy LSOCZ Powerstream 420WWinXPPro (SP1)

[Cruachan 705]

Hi mgh,You believe that a computer operating system is more contentious that, say, nuclear wepons, terrorism, global warming, etc not to mention religion?Of course not. However, would it be misguided or even wrong of me to at least hope that maybe this time a window of opportunity has been provided, whether deliberately or fortuitously, to open up the much-needed wider debate? Much is wrong with our world and currently this is being expressed in so many ways. The apparent need for nuclear weaponry to deter those who dare to threaten; terrorism perpertrated by those few individuals blinded and driven by their own belief systems which appear totally alien to the rest of us; global warming fueled by the relentless technological race and, yes, human selfishness, self-interest and greed.And then there is religion. The wrongs, past and present, perpertrated in the name of religion and rigidly held conviction just doesn't bear thinking about. It comes in so many forms and I am quite sure we can all think of numerous examples without the need for me to list them all here. As Charlie stated: "This debate is about principle

[Geofa 108]

I believe in freedom also. I'd like to continue to have the freedom to continue make my living without being stolen from constantly....Piracy is a huge problem. Just visit a typical high school/college campus and observe the rampant copying and passing around of videos, music cd's, and software.Freedom is earned. The globe may be awakening to other problems but piracy doesn't seem to be one of them.http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

[Guest Charlie]

>Not the hollow shell of freedom that America has>become, but true freedom.Couldn't agree with you more, Ewing. Thanks so much for your comment. It makes my day to hear from one of a dwindling number who clearly understand the big picture and give a damx.Cheers to you, Sir. :-beerchug

[Guest Charlie]

>Freedom is earned.Freedom is earned?I can barely believe my eyes - did you really mean to say "Freedom is earned"?I

[Geofa 108]

Yes-it was earned for example in the Civil War for a minority with countless life's lost, and in World War Two ditto, and by people fighting for their individual rights with varying degrees of success in the world every day.I am fighting for my rights to earn my living by trying to educate why Vista has gone this route. While I am sure no one posting here has ever copied a music cd, video, or downloaded from napster it is a huge problem and hurtfull to lots of people. Maybe if "personal responsibilty" was taken as seriously as "freedom" software manufacturers would not have to resort to such measures.http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

[Cruachan 705]

Hi Geof,"I am fighting for my rights to earn my living by trying to educate why Vista has gone this route. While I am sure no one posting here has ever copied a music cd, video, or downloaded from napster it is a huge problem and hurtfull to lots of people. Maybe if "personal responsibilty" was taken as seriously as "freedom" software manufacturers would not have to resort to such measures."Nobody doubts your justifiable anger over this issue and I can certainly understand your support for the introduction of these new measures to combat it. If I were in your shoes I'm certain I would feel the same. Unfortunately, this, like all that preceded it, will turn out to be no more than token gestures introduced to woo the masses and will fall as soon as the hackers get to work. It will only serve to anger and fuel resentment amongst the rest of us who diligently keep trying, in the main, to prevent ourselves from falling from that ever-eroding path of honesty, trust and self-respect. You may say that this is a price we all have to pay for not having taken stronger action long before now. I, on the other hand, feel that there is now an urgent need to adopt a different approach. This should be designed to deter those who appear to enjoy the challenge of finding ways to circumvent the system either for profit, self-engrandizement or increasing their popularity amongst like-minded peers. Note I say 'deter' rather than 'prevent'. The former is a possible outcome whereas the latter, in my opinion, is not.You hit the nail on the head when you wrote:"Maybe if "personal responsibilty" was taken as seriously as "freedom" software manufacturers would not have to resort to such measures".We have to find long term solutions, ways of bring these miscreants into line once and for all. By doing what they do they have lost all self respect and trust. Once identified, perhaps, in these instances, draconian measures can be justified in the first instance by naming and shaming, by the seizing of assets, by withholding privileges and rights accorded to the rest of us or by penalising those individuals' families who knowingly harbour these criminals. Prison sentences on their own are not the answer unless combined with a recognition that many of these persistent offenders suffer from antisocial personality disorders and serious money is provided to fund rigorous treatment regimes. As you can now appreciate, I do feel as strongly as you do, Geof. I just don't see this continuous hoisting of barriers as the way forward. It may seem laudible to use this as part of the marketing strategy for a new operating system, but IMHO it's just plain wrong. It's high time those with the power to bring about positive change were persuaded to accept this simple truth and act with determination and direction instead of standing by and allowing these destructive community divisions of opinion and confusion to develop. In the end nothing will be achieved and the quality of our lives will become that much poorer as a direct consequence of such passivity.Regards,Mike

[Geofa 108]

I am not in any disagreement with what you said. Having lost my hard drive/motherboard last week and having spent two days jumping hoops to get my legit paid for add ins for fsx back I am frustrated too.On the other hand-I happened to visit a major college campus (40,000 +) recently and happened to pay a visit to the dorm. I was shocked by not only all the illegal copies of high end software on the machines (didn't even bother with music and videos) but that people were running counterfeit copies of windows xp. I very nicely asked these people if they realized that they were stealing from others by doing this. I was met with a genuinely astonished look and an answer of "everyone does it"-it's not a big deal.I would love to think that humanity and our younger generation could do better. Until that magically happens I don't think rolling over and playing dead is the answer.http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

[Mace 1,902]

There is no excuse for it, but, did you ever see those psychological studies that show that people do not have a fully developed sense of right and wrong until their late 20's? No wonder you got bewildered looks.I think in the case of young people, they simply do not have the knowledge, or developed wisdom to fully comprehend the full effect of what they are doing running a pirated OS, for example.However, that is certainly no excuse for them. For sure something needs to be done about it. China, and college campuses are pirate havens. I think the present Activation and DRM systems are buggy, prone to being circumvented, and wholly ineffective.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2310 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 GB Corsair XMS 2.5-3-3-8 (1T), WD 250 gig 7200 rpm SATA2, CoolerMaster Praetorian case

[Geofa 108]

Yes I have-I am on my 3rd 20 year old waiting impatiently for him to reach that magic age of judgement. :-lolAs for as DRM-I'll be the first to let everyone know if it works ....http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

[mgh 89]

"...or by penalising those individuals' families who knowingly harbour these criminals".That's a strange concept of freedom to penalise, for example, parents. If parents are "harbouring" children who pirate software then presumably the children should be thrown out on the street to avoid the parents being penalised?"...I, on the other hand, feel that there is now an urgent need to adopt a different approach. This should be designed to deter those who appear to enjoy the challenge of finding ways to circumvent the system either for profit, self-engrandizement or increasing their popularity amongst like-minded peers."Until you can put forward a practical "different approach" that you can demonstrate will deter thieves globally, then producers will properly take measures to protect themselves against theft of their property.You also claim that "many of these persistent offenders (ie thieves/pirates) suffer from antisocial personality disorders". Do you have any evidence for this, and what difference would funding rigorous treatment regimes make if they don't have anti-social personality disorders? Anyway given the scale of piracy/theft would the treatment be affordable?The bottom line is that in the world as it actually exists, producers have the right to protect themselves against thieves. I agree that in an ideal world this wouldn't be necessary, but has there ever been an ideal world without theft?

[Guest Charlie]

>Yes-it was earned for example in the Civil War for a minority>with countless life's lost, and in World War Two ditto, and by>people fighting for their individual rights with varying>degrees of success in the world every day.>>I am fighting for my rights to earn my living by trying to>educate why Vista has gone this route. While I am sure no one>posting here has ever copied a music cd, video, or downloaded>from napster it is a huge problem and hurtfull to lots of>people. Maybe if "personal responsibilty" was taken as>seriously as "freedom" software manufacturers would not have>to resort to such measures.>>>>>>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpgGeof, you have a narrow self-interest in this that is blinding you to the big picture. And your statement about freedom being earned goes a long way toward explaining your clinging to a position that is in no way morally or ethically defensible.Freedom is not earned, my friend. Freedom is an inalienable right, a birthright. It was not EARNED in the Civil War, WW II, or any other conflict. Many battles have been fought throughout history against tyrants/oppressors who dare take the birthright of freedom from others. In those cases where oppressors were defeated, the birthright of freedom was successfully DEFENDED, not EARNED. There is a huge difference. Winning a battle against an oppressor is defeating an enemy of freedom

[Geofa 108]

Well I'll agree with one thing.I do have a narrow self interest-I think stealing is wrong-from anyone -me,you, or a corporation.For you to turn that around that I have a position that is "no way morally or ethically defensible" is quite a leap.That's enough for me......http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

[Cruachan 705]

"That's a strange concept of freedom to penalise, for example, parents. If parents are "harbouring" children who pirate software then presumably the children should be thrown out on the street to avoid the parents being penalised?"Children of all ages need to be taught that there are consequences for any illegal activity. If those consequences don't leave a lasting impression, and they have not learned from the experience, then we might just as well not bother. Society has grown soft over the past 20 years which is why we are seeing increasing numbers of the younger generation showing little or no respect for what is regarded as acceptable behaviour. Parents too have responsibilities, but many chose to deny their obligations because either they don't know any better or see such behaviour as the norm and therefore also acceptable. This has to change if any progress is to be made.I have just watched a documentary (BBC Panorama) and was appalled to learn that 'Zero Tolerance' in our NHS Hospitals in the UK means that anyone prosecuted for assaulting a Member of Staff will attract a