4 hours ago, efis007 said:

Xp12 is much easier to manage and configure....arcade

It is funny how this adjective can swap places. A smoothed-out/inaccurate ("easier") flight model always gets the "arcade" label. For the "easier" GUI, most will likely just flip to the inverse: more "professional" or "practical". In most ways at least....

I thought this was an xplane forum why so many advertising the other.

Just now, mjrhealth said:

I thought this was an xplane forum why so many advertising the other.

A honest question from a regular, honest answers from regulars.

4 hours ago, blingthinger said:

It is funny how this adjective can swap places. A smoothed-out/inaccurate ("easier") flight model always gets the "arcade" label. For the "easier" GUI, most will likely just flip to the inverse: more "professional" or "practical". In most ways at least....

Actually I used an improper term.
No FS2024 or Xp12 can be called "arcade" simply because they have nothing to do with the arcade: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcade_video_game

5 hours ago, Aglos77 said:

If you are looking for a xplane simulator if you are looking for a MFS video game.

Wrong, xPlane is a video game too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game

You can call it a "simulator" if you like, but the fact that you call it a "simulator" does not make it any different from being a "simulator" video game like FS9, FSX, P3D, MSFS, etc.

As long as you use all these "simulators" at home, with typical video game hardware (i.e. using a regular desktop PC/monitor like most virtual pilots do), all these "simulators" are video games in the literal sense of the word, none excluded.

 

Edited February 5, 20251 yr by efis007

56 minutes ago, efis007 said:

xPlane is a video game too

*can be

14 hours ago, blingthinger said:

*can be

Insignificant detail.

If you use it like this it's a videogame.

If you use it like this it's a simulator.

Even P3D or FS2024, if accessorized with the appropriate addon software and certified hardware, become "simulators" as much as Xplane.
The concept that only Xplane can boast the title "flight simulator" is simply ridiculous.
If I put an undisciplined pilot at the controls of Xplane nothing will prevent that pilot from making the sacred Xplane perform wicked and unrealistic actions, such as passing under bridges with a B747, or doing descents and climbs in PlayStation style, or having fun crashing into buildings, planes, or cars.
So, Xplane, used in undisciplined mode, becomes exactly identical to any other videogame on Earth and has nothing more to do with "simulation".
Therefore, to state that Xplane is a simulator, while P3D or MS2024 are not simulators, is nonsense.
I personally know friends who fly more professionally with the old FS9 than certain XPlane pilots, the latter of whom waste time looking at the "beautiful graphics" while the former, unable to enjoy the "beautiful graphics", concentrate only on the exemplary conduct of the plane, respecting all the charts, tables, and procedures in perfect simulation style.

22 hours ago, efis007 said:

Wrong, xPlane is a video game too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game

You can call it a "simulator" if you like, but the fact that you call it a "simulator" does not make it any different from being a "simulator" video game like FS9, FSX, P3D, MSFS, etc.

As long as you use all these "simulators" at home, with typical video game hardware (i.e. using a regular desktop PC/monitor like most virtual pilots do), all these "simulators" are video games in the literal sense of the word, none excluded.

 

If that is the case you can call any graphic application a game if what you define as something that can use video hardware like in this case a desktop computer that can be use in the home. 

After all, AutoCAD, 3D Studio, Photoshop, Corel Draw, Blender, GIMP, Maya would all be consider games in your view simply by these application having ability to manipulate graphics on a a home desktop. But of course this are not games. These are all tools that give the ability to do something useful or to learn from that is no different than what X Plane can achieve as a simulator and as an engineering tool to design or study an aircrafts or flight simulation in general. What they all share in common is that they can create something and have to ability to put something to use.  Even during to old days, we didn't look at FS as a game after we use it. We view in the way it function and its objective as a simulator as the name implied. No different then how we view AutoCAD that can be use to design buildings that can be exported to any sim or game if desired. Does that make it a game that can be use at home?  

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 20251 yr by BobFS88

I only said that the belief that Xplane is a simulator, and other products such as P3D or FS2024 are not, is an old false belief.
For example, if I use Xplane at home to play undisciplined,... and instead I use FS9 to fly disciplined with cards and procedures,... Xplane has become a game, FS9 has become a simulator.
And/or vice versa.
The same goes for Photoshop or Autocad, I can use them to play or to do serious things, I am the one who decides "what they become" those software.
Xplane cannot escape from this reality.
If I use Xplane to "play", it becomes a video game exactly like FS9, P3D, FS2024.
In essence, based on the use that the user makes of them, all these products become (1) or all video games, (2) or all simulators.
 

@efis007 is right. If you can use it on a desktop PC, it's a game within the genre of flight simulation, featuring an elaborate flight model. Just like DCS and Falcon BMS. What you do within that environment or how elaborate its inner workings are does not matter at all. It runs on a home computer, can be bought by anybody and can be used with the most basic input devices --> game.

P3D is also a game, regardless of how extensively it is used for military training.

If you want an example of "same, but not": Armed Assault versus Virtual Battle Space. Both use the same engine, but one is a computer game for everybody and the other is a professional simulation software intended to be used with specialized hardware.

Edited February 6, 20251 yr by Bjoern

21 hours ago, efis007 said:

As long as you use all these "simulators" at home, with typical video game hardware (i.e. using a regular desktop PC/monitor like most virtual pilots do), all these "simulators" are video games in the literal sense of the word

Exactly, but many still do not understand that these tools are both games and simulators at the same time. 

Let's hear what Austin, the creator of X-Plane, has to say about the simulator vs. game debate.

Quote

"There's really no concept to me of the difference between a game and a simulator. To me, they are both the same thing." Austin Meyers

 

Here we go again, more head banging. I dont kniw why but those who love other fs should stick to those forums, never being there, not my cup of tea.

3 hours ago, efis007 said:

if I use Xplane at home to play undisciplined,... and instead I use FS9 to fly disciplined with cards and procedures,... Xplane has become a game, FS9 has become a simulator.
And/or vice versa.
The same goes for Photoshop or Autocad, I can use them to play or to do serious things, I am the one who decides "what they become" those software.

Anyone can make a game out of anything. But it does change the intent of what that software is. For example: a wall can act as a bat in absent of one to play baseball if one throws a ball against a wall and the ball flies over until someone catches it.

Does that change the definition or purpose of what that wall is? To hold up a building, protect the interior from the outdoor elements etc? 

I never heard of any software defined by how one want use it. It usually the developer of the publisher intent on what the software is for. It you want use it for something other than what it is intended purpose, that's on you, but it does not change the objective from what software is in the case of a simulator. 

"Photoshop or Autocad, I can use them to play or to do serious things"  One of the reason why you would not find AutoCad in retail outlet sold to the masses and the fact that its price is cost prohibitive. Although you can buy it from specific authorize outlets if you are willing to pay $3500 or more for privilege of owning a copy, if you can still get it.

Those are professional tools meant to be use professionally unless you are using it for learning or curiosity purposes like 3D Studio for creativity. Doesn't change what they are even if you do want to play around with it.   

 

Edited February 6, 20251 yr by BobFS88

Even flying for real, when not professionally, can actually be a game.

I consider the kind of recreational flying I do IRL, flying gliders, specially when trying to complete a given task, a game. At least I play it as a game.

At the age of 16 when I got my PPL (gliders) I often sat in the glider imagining it was a B707 🙂 because being an airline was my dream, or imagining it was a T-33 or an Fiat G-91 ... 

As I approached the airport I often imagined I was approaching LPPT ... I was clearly playing a game, with serious / rw rules...

Hmmm, most of what we do in our lives is a game...

Life itself, is a Game !

1 hour ago, Bjoern said:

is right. If you can use it on a desktop PC, it's a game within the genre of flight simulation,

If that is your definition of that constitute a game that is a simulator just because it can run on the PC than any graphic software can be consider a game which is wrong and goes to my earlier point calling Autocad or 3D Studio a game for the same reason.

Microsoft choice to marketed as game is for obvious reason, it will sale more than if the software to classified as learning tool which of its earlier releases FS1 or FS2 which is basically all you could do with it before it became a hobby

1 hour ago, Bjoern said:

P3D is also a game, regardless of how extensively it is used for military training.

No it is not.

How you use it does not change what it is and if LM decide tomorrow to put certain requirement for using the software that is unattractive for gamers, then there is nothing stopping them. It is within their right (LM) as to how they license it's use as to what they want to make the software do as intended. You are just going along for the ride until they decide to let you out.