I’m still struggling to see how people are getting this to work without a border around the window. It only works in windowed mode, right? As far as I can tell, MSFS 2024 (can’t remember 2020) has no option for borderless windowed mode?

Tried LLS again with the setup (fixed RR, force G-sync off) in the comment above with FR cap at 30 & 38. Same result when using LLS, input lag and performance that isn't really playable.

Can someone approve my posts?

22 minutes ago, scotchegg said:

I’m still struggling to see how people are getting this to work without a border around the window. It only works in windowed mode, right? As far as I can tell, MSFS 2024 (can’t remember 2020) has no option for borderless windowed mode?

Works in borderless full screen, which is what I believe msfs runs in. I am sure they use flip discard mode. 

Edited January 23, 20251 yr by Ianrivaldosmith

5 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

Works in borderless full screen, which is what I believe msfs runs in. 

MSFS full screen is actually borderless windowed?

10 minutes ago, scotchegg said:

MSFS full screen is actually borderless windowed?

Yes,You can test if you have multiple monitors. Move your mouse to the second screen, and click. Easy. Try that with a genuine full screen mode game… 

I heard it was a design choice, easier for charts etc… but who really knows. I know it has a 1-2 FPS hit and more input lag… 

Edited January 23, 20251 yr by Ianrivaldosmith

1 hour ago, sudo nymn said:

scene flickering. It's not FS2020-specific and there is no tolerable option other than disabling it or returning the panel. 

I eliminated the VRR flickering by making sure I never drop below 80hz (frames). 

56 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

I eliminated the VRR flickering by making sure I never drop below 80hz (frames). 

Capped at 80 in RTSS or that is after LLS? Can you also confirm for me what you're using in for AA in FS2020?

9 hours ago, sudo nymn said:

Capped at 80 in RTSS or that is after LLS? Can you also confirm for me what you're using in for AA in FS2020?

Capped at 38. FG X3. DLSS DLAA in MSFS24, although bear in mind I am not really using MSFS24 much if at all until it’s fixed up. I’m using XP12. 

5 hours ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

Capped at 38. FG X3. DLSS DLAA in MSFS24, although bear in mind I am not really using MSFS24 much if at all until it’s fixed up. I’m using XP12. 

So the input lag I was getting was because the native FG somehow wasn't switching off in some cases causing LLS to do its work on top of the sim's FG. Sorted that and while I think this is likely headed in the right direction I'm not super convinced about the results at the moment.

@Ianrivaldosmith thanks for the help. Can you confirm a couple things for me:

- Is this even necessary with an RTX 4090 (or any 4 series)? LLS tech looks great, but it just doesn't feel right to be adding an external processing layer.

- With G-Sync enabled, what is the preferred handler for V-Sync? LLS should be Off (Allow Tearing)?  Currently I have:

• FS2020 = V-Sync OFF
• NVCP = V-Sync ON
• LLS = V-Sync OFF

- Is there anything I could be missing outside of sim layer tuning (AI traffic, LOD, etc.) to smooth out the frame pacing? With FR 38 + LLS + VRR, it's still too uneven. In high load scenarios it will either spike high and cause VRR flicker, or low and cause FG artifacts.  

 

22 minutes ago, sudo nymn said:

So the input lag I was getting was because the native FG somehow wasn't switching off in some cases causing LLS to do its work on top of the sim's FG. Sorted that and while I think this is likely headed in the right direction I'm not super convinced about the results at the moment.

@Ianrivaldosmith thanks for the help. Can you confirm a couple things for me:

- Is this even necessary with an RTX 4090 (or any 4 series)? LLS tech looks great, but it just doesn't feel right to be adding an external processing layer.

- With G-Sync enabled, what is the preferred handler for V-Sync? LLS should be Off (Allow Tearing)?  Currently I have:

• FS2020 = V-Sync OFF
• NVCP = V-Sync ON
• LLS = V-Sync OFF

- Is there anything I could be missing outside of sim layer tuning (AI traffic, LOD, etc.) to smooth out the frame pacing? With FR 38 + LLS + VRR, it's still too uneven. In high load scenarios it will either spike high and cause VRR flicker, or low and cause FG artifacts.  

 

This is what I get even at FR 30:

 

 

17 minutes ago, sudo nymn said:

- Is this even necessary with an RTX 4090 (or any 4 series)? LLS tech looks great, but it just doesn't feel right to be adding an external processing layer.

- With G-Sync enabled, what is the preferred handler for V-Sync? LLS should be Off (Allow Tearing)?  Currently I have:

• FS2020 = V-Sync OFF
• NVCP = V-Sync ON
• LLS = V-Sync OFF

- Is there anything I could be missing outside of sim layer tuning (AI traffic, LOD, etc.) to smooth out the frame pacing? With FR 38 + LLS + VRR, it's still too uneven. In high load scenarios it will either spike high and cause VRR flicker, or low and cause FG artifacts. 

I would say if you have a 4090, and a good CPU, just use the built in frame generation within MSFS. I do. I mainly use LLS for XP12, and I imagine it is VERY handy for those that have 3X series cards. 

 

V-Sync off will reduce input lag with LSS using capped frames, but the actual recommended setting if using the in game frame generation is V-Sync on in Nvidia control panel as well as G-Sync on. And V-Sync off everywhere else.

 

Just now, Ianrivaldosmith said:

I would say if you have a 4090, and a good CPU, just use the built in frame generation within MSFS. I do. I mainly use LLS for XP12, and I imagine it is VERY handy for those that have 3X series cards. 

 

V-Sync off will reduce input lag with LSS using capped frames, but the actual recommended setting if using the in game frame generation is V-Sync on in Nvidia control panel as well as G-Sync on. And V-Sync off everywhere else.

 

CPU is 7800X3D. That's what I was thinking as well, no need for an extra processing layer.

I am at a loss for what to do now. I fully understand that the issue is inconsistent frame pacing. With this hardware I cannot imagine why I am hitting performance bottlenecks that others with similar or less powerful hardware are not. So with the frame pacing as it is there is no way with this panel to use G-Sync without the VRR flickering. I can force G-Sync off and use a fixed refresh rate, but that does not eliminate screen tearing entirely. It's an impossible catch 22. 

1 minute ago, sudo nymn said:

CPU is 7800X3D. That's what I was thinking as well, no need for an extra processing layer.

I am at a loss for what to do now. I fully understand that the issue is inconsistent frame pacing. With this hardware I cannot imagine why I am hitting performance bottlenecks that others with similar or less powerful hardware are not. So with the frame pacing as it is there is no way with this panel to use G-Sync without the VRR flickering. I can force G-Sync off and use a fixed refresh rate, but that does not eliminate screen tearing entirely. It's an impossible catch 22. 

I hear you, and the frame pacing in MSFS24 is awful anyway. Whether capped or not, as your video rightly shows. This is why it stutters sometimes. I just left the stutters for now using in-game frame gen. And will just periodically keep an eye on the sim to see if they have improved it or not. 

13 hours ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

I hear you, and the frame pacing in MSFS24 is awful anyway. Whether capped or not, as your video rightly shows.

Have you tried what myself and a few others found provided the best frame pacing in 2020, in 2024?  This is a native rate of 45fps, limited with RTSS' front edge sync, in a complex plane from KSBA > KLAS, super smooth and essentially stutter-free even before you add NV DLSS FG:

 

5 hours ago, Noel said:

essentially stutter-free even before you add NV DLSS FG:

How did you manage to cap FPS BEFORE nVIDIA frame generation is applied? I never managed to do this, caps always work on frame generated FPS in my case...