Poor Aces? Poor Hobby? Poor Phil? Poor me?

[Guest SkullxBones]

>But in the end MS have been good sports and will hopefully>deliver, its there business.Hopefully they can learn from their mistakes and customer outcry and officially support the products they sell us until well after the time the product is pulled from the shelves.

[bob.bernstein 0]

Another thought....Why are people feeling so "lucky" or "fed" by MS participating with customers in forums? Isn't this customer communcation become the norm? It seems like many software and hardware products have forums in which you can enjoy exchange with customer service people from the manufacturer. I propose this is an over-reaction to the previous MS policy of refusing to speak to the customer.Lets face it...in the past we developers were rendered "hackers" due to the official policy of brick-walling communication. My sense of the current philosophy is to develop synergy with the developers that are recogized as strong content contributers. Its very likely that MS hopes to "control" vendors to produced less "hacked" content so that MS can maintain technical control better.Thus, theres an element of this communication being tied to a business objective for MS. Btw, that's fine with me. I only raise it because people are acting like Phil has been "feeding" us, like giving us "gifts". I seriously doubt that the hand is "feeding" us, beyond helping the developers enhance the basic Flight Simulator brand awareness and reach. Essentially, if the communcation with public had proceeded according to the hopes within Microsoft, there would have been a synergy that would have benefited Microsoft future sales, content control that would have reduced costs enabling a better margin, and positives within the community as well.So, lets balance the perspective of who's winning and losing. MS has more to lose than the readers of Avsim for the failure of this effort. I just don't think Microsoft has a lot of experience in dealing directly with people.Best,Bob

[bob.bernstein 0]

In my long post below I addressed the timing of negativity. In addition, I've added my sense of the business element from an MS perspective. This isn't all about hugs. Its also about money...like it or not.Have you stopped to consider why you appreciate the communication with MS so much? Is it because this communication was denied to you for so long? Should it have been ever denied? Is receiving communication from a manufacturer really so much a gift, or is it what should happen, and MS is finally doing what they should have done all along?B

[Geofa 108]

I agree with almost all of what you said except....Disgruntled customers should be going thru the appropriate avenues to deal with their disatisfaction including the ultimate slap in the face-a refund. I know I am with my current Vista problem-and I am very angry about it. Look at the Avsim logo above-"Where Flight Simulation Enthusiasts Gather from around the World".It does not say "where disgruntled customers go to vent,and beat up on off Duty MS employees/flight sim enthusiasts who are also trying to gather (or 3rd party add on manufacturers)".I don't really see this about "yer with us" or "against us" but a continual disregard of what avsim and this forum is set up for. As for the Phil must stay thread, you are seeing a reaction from those who do truly come here to gather, are flight sim enthusiasts, and are upset that the MS flight sim enthusiasts are being shown the door-not by avsim, but a set group of individuals that take great pleasure in making these individuals unhappy to be a part of this community.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[bob.bernstein 0]

Geoff, this concept of Phil being "off duty" is confusing. I assume he's on salary, I know anytime I sign a letter with my company name, or speak to a customer no matter what day of the week or time of day, I'm NOT "off duty". If Phil want's to participate here NOT representing ACES, well, I can't imagine how that could be arranged. Perhpas he could chat under an alias.So...no, he's speaking for MS every time ACES appears in his signiture.As far as the role of AVSIM...no one disputes Avsim's rights to be whatever they choose. Of course the past is precedant, and so having problems resolved has been appropriate up til now. The trouble is these people who thought they were pointing out problems got dissed, by folks refusing to listen.The only solution was to empathize with unhappy customers, even to the point of admitting (possibly unethical) marketing techniques were used. This may have been impossible for MS, which sets us all up for conflict. Problems that did exist were defined as "not problems". Marketing expectations that were unmet were met by frustration rather than apology.The only way I could see Avsim resolving this differently would have been to announce that problem solving is no longer appropriate, only celebratory discussions were now permitted.Hard to imagine, but you guys set the rules.Best,Bob

[bob.bernstein 0]

As far as PHil being "shown the door"...I think whats really happening is that the angry folks have given up on Phil, if after this long, their beefs are still not being validated. Folks that don't dismiss the value of Phil are those who enjoy the product and the communication. To say that person one should feel like person two is the same ol thing....that still invalidates person's one's problem.<>Could be that folks don't know about what the appropriate avenues are. The other factor here is some folks have fallen in love with fs so much that it takes a huge amount of emotion to reach the point of asking for a refund, more than with an operating system...which is pretty invisible most of the time.B

[Geofa 108]

Well I don't see off duty confusing at all. If a Doctor is invited to my house to a party I would consider it innapropriate to ask for medical advice at that time-but I do know some don't see it this way.Problem solving really doesn't equate to making members of this community feeling unwelcome. It isn't just Phil we are speaking of-until recently we had quite a few of the Aces team participating here. I see lots of problem solving done every day in a polite and well appreciated fashion. There are many examples on the present page. I believe that is what makes avsim what it is. If the president of Microsoft calls me personally on my present Vista problem-I will be very polite with him out of respect for his position even though I am very disgruntled. I don't think members of the Aces team or fellow simmers here deserve any less-disgruntled or not.In the Dreamfleet dakota thread below there are questions asking for help-responses offering help, and when the help did not resolve their problem a stating that they will be getting a refund and moving on. A prime example of how things should work around here. I don't think any of the posters feel insulted, I see no ranting,and no one feels a need to walk away from here.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[Joe L 62]

It seems that someone can't be "disgruntled" and still be a flight sim enthusiast? I for one agree with the original poster.What seems to be described is more of an MS enthusiast than a FS enthusiast. Just because someone has a strong opinion about a perceived limitation or fault does not mean they are not enthusiastic, in my opinion they may be even more so than one that accepts things as they are.I will say that no personal attack is ever warranted, but, there are extreme reactions at both ends of this opinion scale.Joe Lorenc

[Geofa 108]

Absolutely one can be a flight sim enthusiast and disgruntled.However-this forum is for the enthusiast side. Customer relations, the company responsible, angry letters, and refunds is more appropriate for the disgruntled side and usually produces actual results.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[bob.bernstein 0]

The difference is the Doctor friend came to your house because he wanted some non-professional freindship. What if that friend came to discuss doctoring? Would you deny that he was acting in the stead of a doctor? What if he offered to look at your sore throat between the main course and dessert? Imagine golfing...you may enjoy that sport with your friends. You may also have had the chance to golf with a prospective customer, its all of a sudden shifted from off hours hobby activity to WORK. If you don't recognize the work quality of that experience, you probably won't get the sale.I still believe that ACES came here as a result of a business decision to embrace the developers, enhance brand awareness, and reduce costs incurred when developers failed to design in line with the base program, not because they knew they might get to have a chat with Bob Bernstein! This was a business decision, so your party analogy fails. Otherwise, you'd have to explain why so many ACES folks got friendly "all of a sudden". Did you follow the work that was done years ago when we first learned to add photoscenery to fs200(2?). We were guided by a "deep throat"..an ACES member that had to remain masked. At that time the business choice was different.BTW, no rancor has ever appeared (so far as I know) between ACES and posters on Arno's site. Why? Becuase the clientel are developers, the rancor is with the users. Its not about ACES vs the Public, its about ACES knowing how to deal with common folks who are unhappy. You may note that ACES still respond on that site, even thou the situation is unpleasant for them here. They just need to re-evaluate the business objectives in light of what's worked and what hasn't and make a logical adjustment. Bob

[Geofa 108]

"I still believe that ACES came here as a result of a business decision to embrace the developers, enhance brand awareness, and reduce costs incurred when developers failed to design in line with the base program, not because they knew they might get to have a chat with Bob Bernstein! "This can not be proven one way or the other by us. However, I would suspect exactly the opposite-that they came here because they are flight sim enthusisiasts and out of a desire to help.Why? Cause I met quite a few of them at the Aopa expo in Tampa a few years ago (well before fsx came out). Your hypothosis would be totally opposed to the enthusiasts that I met.My understanding of why they got "friendly all of a sudden" is because Microsoft the company lifted their age old ban on members posting in forums. Looks like they may have to rethink that one....As for the doctor analogy-I think it is perfect. In Phil's case he showed up to the party-and then gave medical advice to me for free without me asking for it. Quite a nice gesture.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[bob.bernstein 0]

Geof, By my analysing the business motives, this is not to suggest that the people involved in the communication aren't avid flight simmers. I've met many of the ACES as well. They're all enthusiastic folks trying to put out a cool product. I knew some of them before they were allowed to speak on public forums, as I live and work in Redmond. My favorite airport and the site of my only "payware" scenery is the airport that at least one of the Aces' keeps his airplane, and another of the ACES is a part time pilot for the parachute school. These are humans to me first, and members of a business second.The point being that your statement:<>appears to refute my contention, but it really doesn't. The business end is about what restrictions are in place or not, and the value behind that choice. The fact that their help was not appreciated by some users is unfortunate, but my posts are to say that the easy answer...villify the angry customers...is off base. The sad truth is that ACEs wanted to help make an impossible problem taste good. They were in the unenviable position of explaining away false impressions placed in the minds of the customers by a marketing dept that they were not able to influence.Sometimes folks want to feel the human story here I understand that...and I suspect that's why you see my business logic as somehow saying the ACES people weren't sincerely here out of love for their product. Companies are complicated, and the decisions that drive permissions for this or that are made to enhance shareholder value .... AND the people that are then enabled can still be well intentioned "enthusiasts".Make sense?B

[tf51d 284]

Perhaps so, but this is AVSIM, which we pay for and run by ourselves. It's not an official Microsoft website. It's not an official site for any vendor, at least as far as I am aware. The last time I looked, it was usual policy that if you had a problem with a product, you got into contact to the vendor through their own official channels.Jeff! That's not entirely true! While in their own sections, PMDG, HIFI, Radar Contact, among others, call AVSIM home as their official primary support forums. Your right though Aces does not!!

[jkeye 152]

Those of you complaining-I have complained too in the past.But when I look at my alternatives as a CONSUMER- X-plane (any support?)FUIII -any support? the reality hits home: MS needs us and we need MS! Cos no other flight simulation game comes even close.Look -it's only a 50 quid GAME for petes sake!Go and vote with your credit cards or abstain when FSXI comes around.But don't shoot the messenger! I dont think Phil Taylor represents MS complaints' division either!Just my 2 penny.Jay

[tf51d 284]

I still believe that ACES came here as a result of a business decision to embrace the developers, enhance brand awareness, and reduce costs incurred when developers failed to design in line with the base program, not because they knew they might get to have a chat with Bob Bernstein!I'm with Geoff I don't think that was the primary reason, more it was to communicate with the average user. If embracing the developers was the primary goal, why does he only have one post at fsdeveloper.com? Seems to me if that was the reason, he would spend more time over there than here, and probably get beat up a little less in the process!!