Often, regardless of what approach is being used (or even if a STAR is being implemented) adding the approach mid-flight (I normally wait on this so as to obtain the latest weather conditions before choosing approach procedures) will often create a discontinuity by placing the approach sequence AFTER the destination airport (it often retains its original position in the flight plan).

I always check for this - when I see the airport is still listed prior to the approach, I simply delete the original airport waypoint, as the airport itself will still be at the close of the flight plan in approach sequence.  When I do this the flight plan will often auto correct and reconnect.  If not, I activate the approach or use Direct-To to connect.

Thanks Randall

With the expert replies I seem to have noted that the 'pilot' needs to read the physical charts (and know what they mean) and not rely on whatever navigation instrument is in the aircraft (FMC, Garmin 500, 750 etc) for planning a flight. Part of my learning experience I guess. Use them in conjunction with each other?

In my flying days (private) most planning was either for dead-reckoning with the sectional chart on my lap or a track consisting of navaids (preferably VORs) which I found to be an amazing way to navigate.

The tools we have today are way beyond that - I would have loved to have the capabilities we have today with modern systems.  However, even with all of these tools and guidance systems the basic approach is the same - you're still responsible for connecting the dots and making it work.  When you're in the cockpit and verifying your flight plan the Nav system isn't going to do all of the work for you.

I always make sure that the plan is proper and clean before I take off - then I can trust it, and yes, I read the charts (especially approach plates) first, then verify the transitions after the plan is imported.  If I have to change something during the flight, I find a moment to verify the new transition if necessary.

3 hours ago, RandallR said:

the Nav system isn't going to do all of the work for you.

Thanks Randall,

I have since viewed some Youtube videos on reading charts but still cannot determine what criteria is used when, for instance, there are two different ILS charts for the same runway (ILS Y and ILS Z for rwy 35 at YSCB (when I print the charts out and compare I can't see any difference).

and also when there are four similar STAR charts for the same runway and which all start at the same 'waypoint' (BUNGO) and end very close together (BUNG 5 A,  BUNG 5 W, BUNG 5 V, BUNG 5 Y which are all for non jet aircaft).

BUNG 5 A and BUNG 5 Y can be used for either rwy 17 or 35 and BUNG V and BUNG W only for rwy 35.  The only difference I can see between them is where they finish. What criteria does a pilot use to choose which one?

As an extreme novice and only  using a simulator it probably doesn't really matter but I am just curious.

Maybe I have chosen an unusual airport.

If required you can view these charts at   https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/aip.asp?  you will need to scroll down click on agree then choose the required chart type and then select Canberra (YSCB).

 

2 hours ago, Jarnie said:

there are two different ILS charts for the same runway (ILS Y and ILS Z for rwy 35 at YSCB (when I print the charts out and compare I can't see any difference).

The big difference between these two is the reference (and subsequently the referenced distances) which becomes a factor especially when shooting the Localizer approach.

Z: uses the ILS DME (id:ICB)

Y : uses the Canberra VOR (id:CB).

What this means in plain English is. If your aircraft is not equipped with a DME transceiver, you should fly the Y procedure and use Canberra VOR as distance reference.

This is because your typical Garmin G1000 or GTN750 etc  does not usually come with a "real" DME. It will give you horisontal distance derived from its navigation database - not the actual DME slant range distance.

Another problem is that your database might not even have the ICB localizer in it. It is unable to provide any distances at all, or even if it shows up in the database,  DME position on an ILS tend to be different than actual Localizer antenna position, which can introduce unacceptable navigation errors.

So in the end, since your GNSS does not have a real DME you cannot use it for procedures whose design explicitly requires it. Such as when LOC DME distance is used to denote the missed approach point for a localizer approach.

Edited May 2, 20251 yr by SAS443

Thanks. I understand most if not all the beacon types from many years ago when I tried to fly (FS95) without Garmin navigation instruments using instruments which use VOR and ADF beacons.

Wow it gets complicated. I will make up a document containing everything I have learnt from all the replies.

 

When flying IFR with lighter general aviation aircraft, SIDS and STARS are rarely used.  There are a few airports that may require special departure or arrival sequences for everyone, but those special procedures are normally used to separate transport and/or high performance aircraft.

Simbrief knows this, and usually does a good job of planning, only using those arrival and departure procedures appropriate to your aircraft and the airport.  For instance, If you import a Simbrief flight plan directly into your FMS, unnecessary SIDS and STARS will not be included.  However, if you first import your FP (no matter what system you used to create it) into the MSFS planner, it will many times add them inappropriately - keep an eye out for this and delete them if they weren't part of your original plan.

Outside of the different sources for measuring different waypoint positions in an approach that have already been mentioned, different procedures exist to match the capabilities of different aircraft instrumentation.  When flying most non-transport level aircraft you would only use CAT I approaches.  If you are flying a properly equipped airliner, you may be able to use CAT II or even CAT III approaches as their instrumentation is more advanced in vertical position accuracy.

This is one of the best online resources I've seen for learning about ILS approaches: ILS Explained.

Beyond ILS, you can perform other types approaches such as NDB, VOR and RNAV.

Thanks Randall

Greatly appreciated.

I am currently using the Cessna 414 and also have the ATR 42/72 but don't use it much as it seems over complicated for me. And I guess all 'pilots' start with light aircraft in their learning 'journey'. I used to 'fly' very light aircraft such as the Cessna 172 but wanted to fly something faster and with autopilot especially for altitude hold and heading.

As I don't have a subscription to the PMS GTN720 and so can't load FP's I usually use LNM which does a great job of displaying the routes for each STAR and RNAV etc as you click on them (and then choose which one I 'liked').

Maybe I now that I am more familiar its time I should pay a GTN750 subscription as it's not too expensive (for a retiree) or use Simbrief to see what it proposes as a flight plan and use that to manually choose the correct STAR or RNAV in the GTN750.  I do though notice in Simbrief that although it proposes a FP it also gives the user the opportunity in selecting other suggested routes.

Based on what you mentioned it seems that Simbrief will select a STAR or RNAV depending on which airframe you use ie it is smart enough to select an RNAV over a STAR for lighter aircraft as you seem to suggest or is it up to the user which one to select?

In many cases, you wouldn't use either a special departure or arrival sequence at all - joining the flight plan path or transitioning to an approach would be done directly.

Simbrief, when appropriate for the airport and aircraft, will choose SIDs and STARs that connect properly with the airway and/or direction you are approaching from or departing.  Also, some of these procedures are very obviously not for some lighter aircraft (assigned altitudes in the procedures that range from 10,000 to 17,000 feet or higher are going to be absolutely inappropriate for a lot of smaller aircraft).  😉

3 hours ago, RandallR said:

In many cases, you wouldn't use either a special departure or arrival sequence at all - joining the flight plan path or transitioning to an approach would be done directly.

Simbrief, when appropriate for the airport and aircraft, will choose SIDs and STARs that connect properly with the airway and/or direction you are approaching from or departing.  Also, some of these procedures are very obviously not for some lighter aircraft (assigned altitudes in the procedures that range from 10,000 to 17,000 feet or higher are going to be absolutely inappropriate for a lot of smaller aircraft).

Thanks for the additional information

Using Simbrief I planned a flight from YSSY to YSCB using a B738 and the proposed FP was TSAT which uses airway 165 via WOL (ndb) and RAZZI with no STAR. I assume then that 165 doesn't join with any STAR? 

I have searched LNM and Simbrief for ways to display where airways are (start and finish) to determine this but could not find them.

LNM used to have V(ictor) J(et) B(oth) icons on top of screen to allow them to be displayed.

My Navigraph system does display airways - also, SkyVector displays airways but that may only be for the US?

I'm guessing that your flight plan ended with an approach to the Rwy 35 ILS?  Looking at all of the charts and the options it appears there are no STARS for the ILS and that RWY.

However, when I chose one of the other flight plans in SimBrief, in this case, one imported by them from the VATSIM database, you get a different flight route:

WOL2 WOL H65 LEECE LEECE1Y.  This sets you up for the RNP Y Rwy 35 approach and uses the LEECE1Y arrival.

I always click on the Selected Routes options in SimBrief to make my choice.  They usually show around 5 options.  There may even be a lot more.  To see those you would click the View All Routes button.  You can also run a custom generation or crate your own.

7 hours ago, RandallR said:

WOL2 WOL H65 LEECE LEECE1Y.  This sets you up for the RNP Y Rwy 35 approach and uses the LEECE1Y arrival.

Thanks again Randall.

Yes Navigraph does display airways (after clicking on the appropriate icon - I couldn't see the woods for the trees as the saying goes)

Yes Skyvector only seems to display a map of USA however if I click on AIRPORTS and then enter an ICAO or 'drill down' via Country then State to select an airport (eg Canberra) I can select IFR charts and it displays the airways around the airport and I can use my mouse wheel to zoom out as required.

H65 only seems to link YSSY and WOL (in Skyvector - its ok in Simbrief) and also, in Skyvector, the airways are prefixed A, H, V, W  - I am only familiar with only V (Victor - low) and J (Jet - high) and so some tuition for me is required here. Maybe just stick to using Simbrief I think.

For my knowledge I have posted another thread elsewhere asking for someone to advise how to display Victor (low altitude) and Jet airways as the icons in earlier versions don't seem to exist in the latest versions.