45 minutes ago, MattNischan said:

I just want to be super clear here because my intention was not to be a part of any kind of internet slap down, but instead just describe that CL650-like stuff does go on in add-ons you can buy right now, in MSFS, moreso probably than folks realize, and that the "sandbox" so to speak is not really a significant limitation.

I will also be clear that the CL650 is absolutely the most detailed addon that exists and there's good reason it costs $120-ish, and I don't expect it would suddenly be only $60 if it was being sold in MSFS, despite the larger market.

Both of these things can be true and still both of these categories of aircraft can also both be fantastic, and classified as "very very detailed".

Thanks for clarifying that Matt, I no way did I mean to be disparaging towards the C700 - it is my most flown aircraft since I have been keeping records (more or less since MSFS came out). It was actually comments on the WT Discord that persuaded me to look at getting the Challenger, had looked it it before that - but was (foolishly) unconvinced by the YT videos.

 

G

1 hour ago, MattNischan said:

I just want to be super clear here because my intention was not to be a part of any kind of internet slap down, but instead just describe that CL650-like stuff does go on in add-ons you can buy right now, in MSFS, moreso probably than folks realize, and that the "sandbox" so to speak is not really a significant limitation.

I will also be clear that the CL650 is absolutely the most detailed addon that exists and there's good reason it costs $120-ish, and I don't expect it would suddenly be only $60 if it was being sold in MSFS, despite the larger market.

Both of these things can be true and still both of these categories of aircraft can also both be fantastic, and classified as "very very detailed".

As a long time satisfied customer of Hot Start, Black Square, Working Title, et al, I agree entirely with your points above.

So rather than a slap down, gazzareth simply needed to hear it from someone with the proper creds. I’m not, and you are.

you explained it best yourself: just because we can’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not happening, and just because it happens in X-Plane doesn’t mean it can’t happen in MSFS. 

indeed, A2A, Blackbird nee MilViz, and Majestic proved that for us long ago in FSX/P3D.

it ain’t the sims, it’s the devs. 🤙

So has this topic now been hijacked?

 

8 hours ago, fppilot said:

So has this topic now been hijacked?

Yes, although to be fair, there is not much else to say about the FFX Citation X. The release has been delayed until the 22nd and they are not willing or able to disclose the reason, except to say it is not related to the aircraft itself. No new information beyond that.

Danny Glover's birthday. Must be that.  

16 hours ago, fppilot said:

So has this topic now been hijacked?

 

Yup for a moment it was even turned into a LinkedIn "software developers" having an ego meltdown hissy fit match over who has more professional experience than the other.🤣

That's AVSIM for ya...🍻

5 days and that darn tumbleweed. 

 

On 7/14/2025 at 3:45 AM, MattNischan said:

The Longitude does many of the things that the CL650 does, it just doesn't have study screens to show how the sausage is made.

For example, the hydraulics system uses a physics based flow system to model fluid moving throughout the system, including all the accumulators, through the PTCU, etc. Similarly it uses a flow based pneumatic simulation as well, with all the various valves and such. Even though it doesn't show a study screen for them, it also has simulations of heat flow through the fuel system, through the exchanger, the ACM, the cabin pressurization outflow and safety valves, cabin and cockpit heat movement, brake caliper temperature, all sorts of stuff.

It doesn't have a fully custom turbine simulation (although it does have a fully custom and very complex FADEC for the engines) and it doesn't actually model a true ARINC bus (as pilots can't see it and there are faster/less overhead-prone ways to move data around), but it is hugely deep overall. It also doesn't really do failures specifically, although you can put the system in abnormal states through cockpit interaction and get nearly every CAS the real plane has.

As of right now it's the closest thing to the CL650 that exists in MSFS, but of course folks are pushing the boundaries every day and we love to see it. Despite folks saying so, there really is no difference in ceiling whether you develop in XPlane or MSFS. In fact you can happily ignore the sim entirely and implement more or less whatever crazy flying thing you want, since, like A2A you can just set your own plane position and accelerations based on whatever you like. You can completely ignore the sim systems and make your own versions of a jet engine, a hydraulic system, what have you.

Just like XPlane, if you want to strip everything away and just drive the sim like a scenery/world engine with your plane all off on its own simulated universe, like the CL650 does, you can do that in MSFS. The sandbox doesn't mean you have to only use sim systems, just as many planes in MSFS already don't, such as the Longitude.

When did you get access to the CL650 src code????

😜

(Kidding)

Everything you just said is pretty much spot on, based on what I know.  Thanks for posting it!

End of the day, it's all just code.  And anything is possible with code.  

On 7/14/2025 at 4:06 AM, abrams_tank said:

Thank you @MattNischan! This puts to rest the debate about "limitations" of MSFS versus XP!  

Disclaimer:  I'm NOT trying to instigate anything.  Just to be clear.

 

When it comes to default, MSFS, just like X-Plane, is limiting.  The glaring difference is what the default flight model uses, and opinions on that will vary.  

As far as external flight dynamics and systems, such as A2A's Accusim, absolutely anything is possible.  

In saying all that, I certainly hope this DOES put to rest the limitation debates between MSFS and XP.  

Edited July 16, 2025Jul 16 by GoranM

1 hour ago, GoranM said:

In saying all that, I certainly hope this DOES put to rest the limitation debates between MSFS and XP.  

Probably not but it depends on what side of the fence you are on.

Looks like the dates changed to July 22nd.  But I just realized these folks are the guys that made the vision jet?  I'm In. 😉

 

 

On 7/16/2025 at 6:07 AM, JBDB-MD80 said:

Probably not but it depends on what side of the fence you are on.

Isn't it tragic there has to be 'a side of the fence'.  both are flight sims and both have good and bad points - go with the one that has more that you want.

So is this still scheduled for release tomorrow? 

3 minutes ago, lehbird said:

So is this still scheduled for release tomorrow? 

Yes, it is! 

Could be a fun day! 

FlightFX is a mid/lower-tier developer, so I'm not expecting much. 

I still remember the excitement surrounding the release of Eaglesoft's Citation X.......

The days of high-end/"study-level" biz jet addon developers seem long gone.