Is this really what we asked for?

[Guest PowderBlue]

I'm not gonna sit around here and say that the new bird on the block doesn't look sweet and I sure would love to have it as I own all of their other aircraft but what is happening to the sim community is almost as outrageous as the US Economy. I know we all crave for something that we love to fly , whether it be the hardcore guys that want full systems or the other guys that want some buttons but just to get airborne and go. But what happens when things exceed the cost of the sim itself that for most is still riddled with poor FPS and to most who don't have the money or resources to get a rig worth while of the time and effort to get it up to par? It just seems as if things are getting a little bit out of touch. Are you gonna pay 10 dollars down the road for toothpaste? I know alot of researcha nd development and hard , hard work went into things but what happens when the revenue doesn't meet the expected demand? What happens when like the queen it ends up on emule? What happens when the community is sick of the sim being 50 and other things are 60 and 70?

[psolk 3,037]

Maybe you should change your post to is this what "I" asked for...I don't get your argument really. Windows Vista can cost $300 for the entire OS but some software costs $3000 to run on that same $300 OS. All they are is software so by your argument they should never be more than $300 right? You are complaining about the nature of high end software in general...Heck, Office is as much as Vista and yes it ends up on despicable sites with no ethics as well. There will always be people with less than credible ethics who will be more than happy to download from those sites which is part of the reason software cost so much $$$ nowadays. Personally I have never even heard of the site you referenced but I do not know anything about pirated software sites. Too bad people don't spend as much time trying to speak out against pirate software sites as they do questioning the price of a 4 year development cycle they have no insight too...But thank goodness there are also people out there who appreciate the value of a product and show that by purchasing it.We have these price debates every single time a new add-on comes out that people think is too expensive, it is inevitable yet all the posts in the world won't change it.So I lob your own question back to you, is this what you wanted? If Yes then buy it, if No then don't and it really is that simple...and to your other questions:"But what happens when things exceed the cost of the sim itself that for most is still riddled with poor FPS and to most who don't have the money or resources to get a rig worth while of the time and effort to get it up to par?"Is that really a PMDG issue? If people can't run FSX on their rigs then wait for the FS9 version and be grateful companies like PMDG are still developing cross-platform.And finally, if the community gets sick of it? All of the add-on companies will go under, what other answer are you looking for?Just my .02 but if you don't like things then vote with your wallet because nothing impacts developers more than revenue. We ALL know these posts never accomplish anything...Primary RigLiquid CooledIntel C2D E8500 468X9.5 @ 4.45Asus Maximus Extreme4 gigs OCZ Reaper DDR3 @1400Dual OC'd XFX 8800GTX @ 2 gigsDual VelociRaptor 10k 3gb/s RAID-0Dual WD Caviar 500 gig Raid-0Single 150Gig SATA2 Swap Drive28 inch LCD 16XAA/16XAFDual 19 inch LCD'sPCPower and Cooling 1k Quad SLISaitek Yoke, Saitek Rudders, Go-Flight Flap,Gear and Trim Controlhttp://home.comcast.net/~psolk/3monitorsa.htmlBackup RigsIntel E6600 @ 3.2Asus P5N32E-SLI Plus3 Gigs Kingston Hyper XXFX 8600 GTAMD 4000 San Diego @ 2.72 Gigs Kingston Corsair XMS CL2XFX 7900 GTX Raid-0

[Guest JIMJAM]

Ahhh cmon!You only live once so live a little.The price dont matter.Charge it on your credit card and GET IT NOW.Worry about paying for it later.Dont let these guys that proudly display 1/2 page long computer specs that cost the same as a small car kick sand in your face and have all the fun.Charge it!!!

[Toys_R_Us 0]

I think the problem is deeper than what appears on the surface. FS9 came out on Jul 29, 2003. That means it will most likely be 7 years before a FS11 appears. That's too long in the software industry.Having run both FS9 and FS10, I think one could argue that considering everything, including seriously decreased frame rates and the need for expensive new machines just to run, little total improvement has been seen in the sim. Yes, road traffic is very nice, but with add-on's for both, I don't see all that much difference beyond that over the period. And the blurries and frame rates around big cities are much worse.This situation is not good for the third party community. They have to spread their costs over total unit sales volume. Then Aces is putting their top priority on trains. Just think what would happen if that same effort was put on expanding the features of simplification for new users and producing a sim that ran at speed.I think this is why third party prices are spiking out of control. If Aces has deliberately dragged their feet in order to help a very strong third party community, I think that plan has backfired due mainly to performance problems in the sim.Bob (Las Cruces, NM)XP-Home, With FS Genesis Terrain MeshLogitech G15 Backlit Game Keyboard and18 Programmable Macro/Keystroke KeysAsus P5N-D MotherboardIntel E8500 @ 3.16GHz (Now)CPUThermaltake MaxOrb Enthusiast CPU FanCorsir XMS2 PC6400/DDR2/800 Dual, 4GigsSATA-II 3.0Gb/s 16MB Cache 7200RPM HDDEVGA Geforce 8800 GT/512 (OC'd Version)Dual Flat Panel Monitors

[Guest PowderBlue]

Psolf, I appreciate your constructive sarcasm but you have your hand so far in the sim community cookie jar I would expect nothing less of you. Now go back and read what I wrote. This has nothing to do with the price of the add ons. It has to do with the impact of rising costs for the sims which have increased , the rising prices of the add ons now costing more then the sims themselves, and on top of that the crap you have to buy just to run it at your desired specs. Don't tell me the serious simmer is gonna buy a standard dell online and be happy with the way FSX runs. Is that what you asked for? Cause to answer your question no it's not what I asked for. I would much rather pay 100 dollars for the sim that is nice that more the 60% of the simming population could use. And if you've been living in a closet money is not exactly abundant. I think that put it on the credit card statement and worry about it later is why the "World" is in such a fiasco. So you tell me is this what you asked for?

[MarkRey 16]

Afaic devs can charge whatever they please, it's not as if these toys are necessities, one CAN opt not to buy them.Plus, hi end airliners these days are probably the overall hardest addons to properly produce and support. I mean good grief Bill G started the thing EIGHT years ago! Years in the making and years of support to come?? It's not for me but I'm sure the thing is worth every cent.regards,Mark

[RFields5421 1]

I think you are seeing two things which are not terribly related.First - Microsoft/ Aces enjoys some significant economies of scale which allows them to price the Simulator program at a point which will generate greater sales numbers necessary to cover their development costs.Second - Speciality developers who focus on small fractions of the Flight Sim community do not have the target audience, or even the opportunity audience of a significant portion of the FS community. They have to price their product to meet their costs with their target number of sales.I've always though the cost of individual addons was several times higher than Microsoft's cost would be. That is if MS included the addon in the base product.Even a $20 addon airplane package from Abacus costs way, way more than it would cost MS to include the birds in the base sim.But MS knows how much they can charge and how much they can budget for development of FS.They also know the only reason this product keeps going with new life and new fans with every release is because Flight Simulator is not an all inclusive product.They leave plenty of room for development and enhancement - which benefits both MS/Aces and the addon developers.

[FalconAF 213]

PowderBlue,Don't take this wrong, but I'm curious...How old are you? Because several of your statements quoted below from your first post reflect a lack of life experience when it comes to "finances". Pardon me while I point a few of them out:> But what happens when things exceed the cost of the sim itself...Gee...I can thing of numerous things that could be defined as "addons" in other areas of my life that "cost more" than the original product.1. I've had a $2000+ big-screen TV for over 3 years now. My 36-month total cable bill has easily exceeded that cost in the 3 years I've had cable. Not to mention the DVD's I bought to watch on it, numerous Pay Per View specials, etc (assuming of course, I didn't "pirate" any of those DVD's from emule).2. Bought a brand new refrigerator when I built my new house 18 months ago. Cost around $1200. I'm pretty sure I've filled it with more than that amount of food since then. And guess what? I can't reuse that food over and over again, like an FSX addon. Yup...once I eat it, it's gone. Gotta go buy some more food again. Same food a lot of times, too! Bummer...3. Are my "yoke and rudder pedals" that cost $149 an "Addon" for Flight Simulator? Why not? I sure as heck didn't buy them to drive my racing simulators. I'm pretty sure I bought them because I bought FSX...so I could "fly" the original program that "only" cost $40.>that for most...who don't have the money or resources to get a rig worth while of the time and effort to get it up to par?Uh...am I missing something here? Your list of computer specs at the end of your post doesn't look like you are in dire financial stress. Quad Core? DDR3 memory? Looks like you "got the money" and "resources" to make it all work. > Are you gonna pay 10 dollars down the road for toothpaste?Sooner or later, of course you are! Heck, I'm 54-years old now. I remember when toothpaste was 15 CENTS a tube! I think the last tube I bought a few weeks ago was over $4.00. Gas for my car? It cost 25 CENTS a gallon when I got my first car in 1972. Just filled my current car up yesterday...for ONLY $4.12 a gallon. Heck...at that price, sooner or later I'm gonna end up paying more for the GAS than the original price of the CAR, too! Stick around...if you are young enough now, and live long enough, that tube of toothpaste WILL cost you $10. And save your spare change, 'cos the toothbrush is gonna cost you $5.00 so you will be able to use the toothpaste.I'm curious. In as much as FSX "only" cost about $40 originally, what would YOU suggest a "reasonable price" for an addon should be that took 4 years research and development, by a whole lot more than just ONE person?If ya don't wanna buy it...don't. But don't condemn the developer just because you think it costs too much. The "free market" will determine that. And no doubt those prices reflect the fact that there ARE people who won't "buy" it, but rather feel cheated, then go "steal" it off of somewhere like emule.FalconAF

[Guest UlfB]

> I'm not gonna sit around here and say that the new bird on>the block doesn't look sweet and I sure would love to have it>as I own all of their other aircraft but what is happening to>the sim community is almost as outrageous as the US Economy. >Well, as being a happy and wealthy european I just enjoy the dollar going all time low ;-)> I know we all crave for something that we love to fly ,>whether it be the hardcore guys that want full systems or the>other guys that want some buttons but just to get airborne and>go. >Agree.> But what happens when things exceed the cost of the sim>itself that for most is still riddled with poor FPS and to>most who don't have the money or resources to get a rig worth>while of the time and effort to get it up to par?>The provider of an add on that isn't accepted by the market won't survive. It's that simple. > It just seems as if things are getting a little bit out of>touch. Are you gonna pay 10 dollars down the road for>toothpaste? I know alot of researcha nd development and hard ,>hard work went into things but what happens when the revenue>doesn't meet the expected demand? What happens when like the>queen it ends up on emule? >I'll be happy to pay 10 dollars for toothpaste if I feel that the toothpaste is worth the money. If I don't feel it's worth the 10 dollars and everybody else share my opinion, the toothpaste won't survive on the market.> What happens when the community is sick of the sim being 50>and other things are 60 and 70?>The developers of those add ons will be gone from the market. Right? I can't figure out the reason to your post. What's your problem? Do you envy people that enjoy payware add ons that you can't afford? What's your point?Ulf BCore2Duo X6800 3.3GHz4GB RAM Corsair XMS2-8500C5BFG 8800GTX, Creative SB X-FiFSX Acc/SP2, Vista 32

[Guest Paul Heaney]

It's simple economics, I'll saw the same thing I said last night, only this time PMDG won't be deleting my post.They WILL continue to charge what they wish, because they know that there are hundreds of a really excited user lining up with mom and dad's credit card, willing to pay the outrageous prices they are charging, the second it comes out. If you don't like it, don't pay it. If EVERYONE did that, they'd have no choice but to lower it. But since they know that they can charge $122US for a product that people will run out and buy, they will charge it.Let them know with your Wallet. Like I did, don't give them the satisfaction of ripping you off.I makes me laugh, how they go many months overdue on their deadline, and people still flock to give it to them. At this rate, it will be 2012 by the time the NGX comes out.Each to their own, I guess.

[psolk 3,037]

>It's simple economics, I'll saw the same thing I said last>night, only this time PMDG won't be deleting my post.>>They WILL continue to charge what they wish, because they know>that there are hundreds of a really excited user lining up with mom and>dad's credit card, willing to pay the outrageous prices they>are charging, the second it comes out. If you don't like it,>don't pay it. If EVERYONE did that, they'd have no choice but>to lower it. But since they know that they can charge $122US>for a product that people will run out and buy, they will>charge it.>>Let them know with your Wallet. Like I did, don't give them>the satisfaction of ripping you off.>>I makes me laugh, how they go many months overdue on their>deadline, and people still flock to give it to them. At this>rate, it will be 2012 by the time the NGX comes out.>>Each to their own, I guess.You know what Paul you lose all credibility with comments like: "there are hundreds of a really excited user lining up with mom and dad's credit card"As a 34 year old that makes more than both his parents ever did and spends a #### of a lot of money supporting his parents I don't need to tell you where to stick downright insulting comments like that.Furthermore, $122 is for 4 products FSX Passenger and Cargo as well as FS9 Passenger and Cargo.Finally:>I makes me laughI'm glad you made yourself laugh because I am sure there are quite a few who aren't laughing at your comments and if you went into the PMDG forum and made insulting comments like you did here then good on them for deleting it IMHO.-PaulPrimary RigLiquid CooledIntel C2D E8500 468X9.5 @ 4.45Asus Maximus Extreme4 gigs OCZ Reaper DDR3 @1400Dual OC'd XFX 8800GTX @ 2 gigsDual VelociRaptor 10k 3gb/s RAID-0Dual WD Caviar 500 gig Raid-0Single 150Gig SATA2 Swap Drive28 inch LCD 16XAA/16XAFDual 19 inch LCD'sPCPower and Cooling 1k Quad SLISaitek Yoke, Saitek Rudders, Go-Flight Flap,Gear and Trim Controlhttp://home.comcast.net/~psolk/3monitorsa.htmlBackup RigsIntel E6600 @ 3.2Asus P5N32E-SLI Plus3 Gigs Kingston Hyper XXFX 8600 GTAMD 4000 San Diego @ 2.72 Gigs Kingston Corsair XMS CL2XFX 7900 GTX Raid-0

[Guest NoobPilot]

If you don't like the price of it, then don't buy it. It's as simple as that.

[Guest Paul Heaney]

>As a 34 year old that makes more than both his parents ever>did and spends a #### of a lot of money supporting his parents>I don't need to tell you where to stick downright insulting>comments like that.Grow thicker skin. And don't use Characters to disguise profanity.>Furthermore, $122 is for 4 products FSX Passenger and Cargo as>well as FS9 Passenger and Cargo.Call it what you like, it's for 2 products. FS9 and FSX. Taking out seats and adding cargo area, isn't another product, but PMDG would have you believe they are.>Finally:>>I makes me laugh>I'm glad you made yourself laugh because I am sure there are>quite a few who aren't laughing at your comments and if you>went into the PMDG forum and made insulting comments like you>did here then good on them for deleting it IMHO.Yeah, you can't state your opinion over there, so I stated it here. Your one of those a really excited user I talked about, Raving the raves of PMDG, posting how Honored you are to test it out, Yeah I get ya. I know how it works, it's called Propeganda. The more people hear about how great something is, the greater chance they will buy it. I've been apart of some Flight Sim Propaganda on these forums myself, in the past, and I'm well aware on how it works.If you don't like someone's comments, don't read them. Move on, but if you are going to Praise PMDG like they own you (and apparantly they do) then don't be surprised when someone speaks their mind about it. Hey, I guess you got a free MD-11 out of the deal, eh?I'm not getting a Loan to buy a product that's overpriced. It's my opinion, deal with it, or move on.Oh yeah. Have a great Day!

[psolk 3,037]

Paul,I have no problem with people stating their opinions but do it with the level of respect we all deserve and I will treat you the same in return. When you resort to name calling and in essence bashing people for supporting a release what is gained?You have a great day too...Primary RigLiquid CooledIntel C2D E8500 468X9.5 @ 4.45Asus Maximus Extreme4 gigs OCZ Reaper DDR3 @1400Dual OC'd XFX 8800GTX @ 2 gigsDual VelociRaptor 10k 3gb/s RAID-0Dual WD Caviar 500 gig Raid-0Single 150Gig SATA2 Swap Drive28 inch LCD 16XAA/16XAFDual 19 inch LCD'sPCPower and Cooling 1k Quad SLISaitek Yoke, Saitek Rudders, Go-Flight Flap,Gear and Trim Controlhttp://home.comcast.net/~psolk/3monitorsa.htmlBackup RigsIntel E6600 @ 3.2Asus P5N32E-SLI Plus3 Gigs Kingston Hyper XXFX 8600 GTAMD 4000 San Diego @ 2.72 Gigs Kingston Corsair XMS CL2XFX 7900 GTX Raid-0

[David Roch 1,980]

If what you really asked for is a locked post, you've got it.