Bob,This is the kind of assertions that can be sowing seeds of doubt about your relationship with Ariane.If you want to keep some credibility IMO you should avoid being so peremptory.I dislike in this thread personnal attacks against you as much as I dislike all kind of brainwashing that might hide blatant advertizing.Same story here:As you know, commercial members must be clearly identified in our forums.Thanks

David,By that statement I, of course, mean "to my knowledge". I have almost all of the products that Ariane sells and have had to have them re-activated several times.Although sometimes it takes longer than I think it should, I have never not had a product activated. If I did I wouldn't be on these forums supporting them as a developer at all.I am a sign maker in Alabama and have never piloted an airplane, designed or sold airplane software or worked in any way for Ariane other than trying to stop the senseless bashing of a good sim aircraft software designer who had been one of my favorites.Every sim enthusiast that defends their favorite designer does not work for that designer as much as those that dislike them would love to believe that.I am not capable of "brainwashing" anyone, but likewise I will not be brainwashed by negative rumors that I feel are unfounded.I do appreciate that you are a fair moderator of these forums and understand your concerns.

I have hesitated getting into this thread because it's gotten so long and emotional, but I have the Ariane 737 900 for FSX. I am what you would call the "light weight" simmer, I do it for fun and practice and I wanted to see if I would like a complex procedural sim. I decided to try the Ariane BECAUSE it is so controversial just to see whats fact and fiction on the message boards, I have the PMDG 747 and like it, but I wanted a smaller twin engine for local jet travel as I don't have the time to set up and monitor long distance transcontinental flights.As a background I am getting a ppl so I know a little about flying props but have no real world experience with jets. I also have no experience reviewing products.I found the sim to be fair to good and everything is as advertised.Activation took 4 days, which I didn't care for but was prepared for after reading reviews etc. The documentation is excellent(but not printable), the plane looks good in DX9, I had to switch over to DX 10 to keep my framerates after getting a triple-head display and it looks a little rough without nhancer improving the overall appearence. The ARIANE message boards are a good place to get any questions answered and in general have a friendly tone, but getting access took longer than getting the sim activated. The nav data is incomplete which bothered me because I live and sim-fly in the Tampa Bay area and there are no SID/STARS for KTPA. The sound set is good, the text on the VC displays is a little hard to read requiring zooming and some imagination.On the whole I think the product is as advertised, a complex procedural sim. The level of customer service is also well documented, if you are not prepared to deal with it then don't buy it. IF you do buy it I think you'll be happy with it, it's not as polished as the PMDG offerings but still good none the less.Oh yeah I check these boards pretty infrequently so please don't take it personally if I don't answer any follow-up questions.

Al, I have also sent a PM to Ed at Ariane concerning your activation.Also for the person who was asking about entering gross weight in Ariane's FMC/CDU, the answer is yes.On page 63 of Bill Bulfer's 737 FMC user manual, it says that the FMC will round off the weight on its own, but it will accept the full weight number as a decimal. So that is realistic.

I have hesitated getting into this thread because it's gotten so long and emotional, but I have the Ariane 737 900 for FSX. I am what you would call the "light weight" simmer, I do it for fun and practice and I wanted to see if I would like a complex procedural sim. I decided to try the Ariane BECAUSE it is so controversial just to see whats fact and fiction on the message boards, I have the PMDG 747 and like it, but I wanted a smaller twin engine for local jet travel as I don't have the time to set up and monitor long distance transcontinental flights.As a background I am getting a ppl so I know a little about flying props but have no real world experience with jets. I also have no experience reviewing products.I found the sim to be fair to good and everything is as advertised.Activation took 4 days, which I didn't care for but was prepared for after reading reviews etc. The documentation is excellent(but not printable), the plane looks good in DX9, I had to switch over to DX 10 to keep my framerates after getting a triple-head display and it looks a little rough without nhancer improving the overall appearence. The ARIANE message boards are a good place to get any questions answered and in general have a friendly tone, but getting access took longer than getting the sim activated. The nav data is incomplete which bothered me because I live and sim-fly in the Tampa Bay area and there are no SID/STARS for KTPA. The sound set is good, the text on the VC displays is a little hard to read requiring zooming and some imagination.On the whole I think the product is as advertised, a complex procedural sim. The level of customer service is also well documented, if you are not prepared to deal with it then don't buy it. IF you do buy it I think you'll be happy with it, it's not as polished as the PMDG offerings but still good none the less.Oh yeah I check these boards pretty infrequently so please don't take it personally if I don't answer any follow-up questions.

Good review PingPong. I agree. I don't know about the DX10. I didn't notice any difference, but I will put things on DX10 and have a closer look.Thanks for the honest write up.Bob

Al, I have also sent a PM to Ed at Ariane concerning your activation.

That's very decent of you, thanks.Let's hope yours blast its way through to somebody.EDIT: apparently you have the magic touch, or maybe I do because I've just had a reply to my email to Ariane with an activation code and an apology for the delay, which it seems was related to the Easter break. Just off to try activating it now.Al

Ok Al, I hit the motherload of answers from Ariane. I looked and had about six emails from them.Here is one of the answers:

Thanks Bob but they need to be fair here. We all take Easter as a holiday which means less staff than usual at the time. We are making sure that all activations are done so by the time you get this they should all be finalised or well on the way to all being covered. Thanks for letting me know this.

Also this:

We cannot help but advise people to use our forum and send us a private message. We are moving over to a new activation email system for next month. If all the tests work then that will be a major advance for everyone.

I like the fact that they are setting up a more user friendly activation method. I hadn't heard about that before, but that will solve a lot of problems. I figured that Easter had set them behind. He says that by the time I receive this email, everyone should have their products activated. I know I have my activation for the 737-800 now. :(

There is a slow refresh rate with the instruments in FS9 versions, but the FSX X2 instruments have an excellent and silky smooth refresh rate, actually even smoother than the real instruments from what I have seen on my "Just Planes" videos.But definately this is a problem with FS9 versions. They said it was a limitation of FS9, but I have seen some sims with smooth gauges, so it just depends on the different "work arounds" that different developers are aware of.

Thanks for your answer, much appreciated, and very reassuring. I'll look forward to reading the AVSIM review when it is published. Anthony H.

EDIT: apparently you have the magic touch, or maybe I do because I've just had a reply to my email to Ariane with an activation code and an apology for the delay, which it seems was related to the Easter break. Just off to try activating it now.Al

I just received the same explanation as well as an activation code myself. Off to see if I can successfully activate myselfBob.

"Also for the person who was asking about entering gross weight in Ariane's FMC/CDU, the answer is yes.On page 63 of Bill Bulfer's 737 FMC user manual, it says that the FMC will round off the weight on its own, but it will accept the full weight number as a decimal. So that is realistic."Sorry Bob, I wasn't asking if it accepted decimals - they ALL accept decimals.I understood from a previous post in this thread, that the Ariane FMC insisted on a 3 (THREE) digit decimal entry, eg 122.345. That is the question I was asking. Is that so, and does a real 737NG FMC behave the same?If I've missunderstood the original post, then my aplogies, but please let me know.Thanks

David,By that statement I, of course, mean "to my knowledge". I have almost all of the products that Ariane sells and have had to have them re-activated several times.Although sometimes it takes longer than I think it should, I have never not had a product activated. If I did I wouldn't be on these forums supporting them as a developer at all.I am a sign maker in Alabama and have never piloted an airplane, designed or sold airplane software or worked in any way for Ariane other than trying to stop the senseless bashing of a good sim aircraft software designer who had been one of my favorites.Every sim enthusiast that defends their favorite designer does not work for that designer as much as those that dislike them would love to believe that.I am not capable of "brainwashing" anyone, but likewise I will not be brainwashed by negative rumors that I feel are unfounded.I do appreciate that you are a fair moderator of these forums and understand your concerns.

OK, Bob, fair enough.I just wanted to check that everyone here complies with Avsim's rules.I am very happy that this thread is remaining constructive and interesting.Regards,David

Ok Al, I hit the motherload of answers from Ariane. I looked and had about six emails from them.Here is one of the answers:Also this:I like the fact that they are setting up a more user friendly activation method. I hadn't heard about that before, but that will solve a lot of problems. I figured that Easter had set them behind. He says that by the time I receive this email, everyone should have their products activated. I know I have my activation for the 737-800 now. :(

Bob, I also emailed them with the email you gave, but have yet to receive a reponse, do you think you could ask them about support for add on hardware, if they have an SDK? Namely support for Open Cockpits MCP etc. Also did you get chance to suggest the LEVELD idea for their forum having an open area for prospective purchasers and closed area for owners for support?RegardsJames

Aliiiive! Well, looky here... No problem with the activation code. Ariane very apologetic about the delay, happy to have me on board etc, etc. Here's a quote from their email: 'Our apologies for the delay in replying. We hope to help you as much as we can during the period you use our product'That doesn't sound much like the horror stories we've heard, does it? Maybe all those rumours are just that, which, you will remember is why I coughed up for this product to review it, and find out the truth on that score. So, it seems I'm all set up to do that now.Just emailed Ariane support about forum activation, so hopefully will hear about that too, because that's another aspect people will doubtless be interested in on a review. I'll be on the case this week from late tomorrow (got a long day training people on Photoshop tomorrow before that - typical, just when you get a new toy eh?).Which means, disregard what I said earlier about advising people not to buy it because of activation delays, because now we know that it really was down to the Easter break and the backlog from it (there's a turn up eh? all those accusations of poor service and it turns out it was actually the Roman's fault for executing *******). Although do keep in mind that SimMarket's responses and documentation definitely were incorrect for the product, as I reported, and indeed probably still are unless they get around to changing it, so I'll keep you posted on what I hear about that too, because essentially I have short circuited the activation process here and gone around SimMarket's faulty activation info. Also keep in mind that I still need to find out how good/bad this 737 is for the review (and that's going to be in-depth), so you might want to wait for that before throwing your ill gotten gains its way. But, it cranks up okay, engine smoke on start up looks good, interface and ambient sounds are good, IRS aligns properly, runs pretty smooth in FSX, displays look good (better than they did in the FS9 version which my friend has, and I thought they were pretty good actually) that I can tell you so far. Look out for more soon, in the meantime, here are some pics of it in activated working order:Only took 130 hours of waiting too LOL. 30 minutes my &@($*...Al

Alen, I'm glad everything got squared away with the activation. They were also very apologetic with me, but really I expected them to have a long Easter weekend. I know I did. :(

Bob, I also emailed them with the email you gave, but have yet to receive a reponse, do you think you could ask them about support for add on hardware, if they have an SDK? Namely support for Open Cockpits MCP etc. Also did you get chance to suggest the LEVELD idea for their forum having an open area for prospective purchasers and closed area for owners for support?RegardsJames

I will James. They are behind with activations and that email address is the same one that is used for that purpose. That is probably why they haven't answered yet.Is the "SDK" what is needed to run all that cockpit hardware?I will also mention to him about having an open area on the forums, but I know the problem is that there are a lot of people who don't intend to purchase Ariane products, but who are really rude and will get on those areas and talk a lot of trash just to try to discourage other new buyers. It becomes counter productive.The guy who admins that forum also goes to college full time and is working on his instrument license, so he doesn't have any time to manage an open area in the forum and delete mean posts. He is the one that closed that area, not Ariane. Actually the whole forum belongs to him. Ariane just gave his some guidlines in setting it up.Like me, he just likes Ariane products a lot and wanted them to have a customer forum to help resolve some of the problems that other customers could help each other with. That is why he started that one.Bob

Alen, I'm glad everything got squared away with the activation. They were also very apologetic with me, but really I expected them to have a long Easter weekend. I know I did. :( I will James. They are behind with activations and that email address is the same one that is used for that purpose. That is probably why they haven't answered yet.Is the "SDK" what is needed to run all that cockpit hardware?I will also mention to him about having an open area on the forums, but I know the problem is that there are a lot of people who don't intend to purchase Ariane products, but who are really rude and will get on those areas and talk a lot of trash just to try to discourage other new buyers. It becomes counter productive.The guy who admins that forum also goes to college full time and is working on his instrument license, so he doesn't have any time to manage an open area in the forum and delete mean posts. He is the one that closed that area, not Ariane. Actually the whole forum belongs to him. Ariane just gave his some guidlines in setting it up.Like me, he just likes Ariane products a lot and wanted them to have a customer forum to help resolve some of the problems that other customers could help each other with. That is why he started that one.Bob

Bob,I put my Admin hat away for awhile and I'll give you my thoughts as a simmer.Forgive my bad English but I am sure you'll understand me.If I react today it's because I think it's time to stop this "do-gooder-ism" and tell the truth.1) Why should people be rude if they get a friendly support? Why would they wish to discourage others to buy a product they love?How things are going on PMDG, LDS, Flight1, Dreamfleet etc...etc... forums??If Ariane's customers are angry today it is because of the lack of support they got in the past, because of the scorn they received from this company for years. If they try discouraging others it is because of the bad product they got in the past. I am one of them.I've purchased their first product in April 2005. It took two weeks before I had the activation key. The product was very expensive and totally unflyable. I tried to reach them for several bug fixes and I wrote a dozen of VERY POLITE emails. I never received an answer until I told them that I will complain and ask my bank to cancel the deal. Then I received an mail full of threat and frankly "maffia style".I then swore to myself that I will never deal with those guys again.Time have passed and I understand that they have changed their relationship with customers now. It's all credit to them.I also understand that they have drasically improved their product. Well done.So twenty days ago I have purchased their full documentation (around 85 euros). Because I am a real qualified pilot I wanted to see how they were explaining systems and procedures before eventually purchasing their new product. Last week I sent them a VERY POLITE email wondering why it took that long to receive the parcel with the manuals. Did they answer? No. Did I receive the parcel today? No. Eastern holidays?? No, it's just a three days weekend, right?.2) About forumsI can understand that you love their product, that you have a wonderful relationship with Ariane's team, that you'd like to help changing their bad reputation but please don't make a fool out of us trying to explain that this poor guy is a student, he is working on his instrument license blah blah.Ariane charges something like $100 for their product, charges for liveries, charges to have printed manuals (what a shame!) and they don't have some spare quids to open a "normal" forum???? They need a volunteer that doesn't have time?So they don't open a forum to avoid those ugly simmers spending their time in bashing and insulting.So their forum doesn't exist because this student doesn't have time.So they don't answer to emails because they are on vacations.So it take them three, four, six days to send a registration key and twenty days to send the manuals probably because one of them has caught a cold.Sorry Bob but we are not in a kindergarten.Will you call my post "bashing"? Will you believe that I am motivated by any resentment?No because you exactly know what I mean.This is business. We are customers not friends, and above all not suckers.Despite all your efforts to rehabilitate this company and justify every one of their breach of trust I for one am not convinced at all.The day Ariane will respect their customers, stop their greed and behave like other serious company they will not have to be affraid to open a forum and no one will complain.I wish them to succeed. They are probably on the good track but there is still a long road to cover before they win my trust.

Sorry Bob but we are not in a kindergarten.This is business. We are customers not friends, and above all not suckers.Despite all your efforts to rehabilitate this company and justify every one of their breach of trust I for one am not convinced at all.The day Ariane will respect their customers, stop their greed and behave like other serious company they will not have to be affraid to open a forum and no one will complain.

I think I am having to Start to agree here with David. I have never purchased an Ariane product, but I was interested in doing so, I love my 767 but would like to fly more aircraft like I used to do when I was happy using my mouse. Hence why the MD11 from PMDG didnt get brought and hence why their excellent 747 sits on my harddrive doing nothing. So I await PMDG to catch up with the FS world with hopefully their 737X. This is why I looked to the Ariane product, to see if it would meet my needs to support add on hardware, but also be a true representation of the aircraft, just like the PMDG products are and would be if they supported hardware.Difference is I can go to the PMDG forum, Level D forum, and ask those questions, get pre support etc. People post on there sometimes not happy, but are still answered (Aslong as they not rude) but majority of people even with problems with the sim are happy with the product they paid good money for and in fact less money than the Airane products.People can purchase these products, via various methods in both Boxed and Download formats, and have their sim running that day, not two weeks or even 2 days later. They can instantly get support for the product should they run into any problems with its use, again not waiting 2 weeks or more to access a forum or await an email response. Again all for LESS money than Ariane charge.So as I said before its not about the money, Im quite happy to pay whatever it costs if something is good, good however as to be the whole product and in my mind that is not only the bits and bytes I download but the support, and customer service I receive afterwards.At present these forums have shown that people have given Ariane the benefit of the doubt following on from all past criticisms of Ariane, yet they have come up against problems that have been echoed before. An activation system that is slow, unreliable, not being able to gain support for the product, and as yet we have yet to see anyone tell us that its actually a totally amazing aircraft even once they got past all these problems.As David points out, this is Buisness, if they were some bloke doing this in is sparetime, distributing it as Freeware or cheap Shareware, then all could be forgiven, but it is sold at a Fair price, higher than most other addon aircraft, with the need to pay even more for more liveries and documentation. So I can understand customers expecting that bit more. This is where I see that people become anti Ariane. You only have to look at the state of the FS hobby at the moment, and see that we are not getting anywhere near the amount of addons that we used to see with FS9, so people in this hobby would love to support any new product, love to give it rave reviews and purchase it, the fact that they slate Ariane and not PMDG or LevelD is simply that Ariane are allowing them to by poor customer support for a product that they are paying a higher price for.So if Ariane want to stop this criticism they the only ones who can, by changing there activation system to something quicker and friendly that still protects their software, they need to get rid of the busy student and have a forum that can be accessed by all. Then and only if there product does as it says it does for the price they charge they wont need to worry about being bashed any more, and they will then be as popular as PMDG and LevelD are. Of course if still doesnt support hardware i wont buy it, but for those that dont need this Im sure they will only be to happy to buy from Ariane, just like I would from PMDG if they start to support hardware.RegardsJames

What I find most incredible is that despite every opportunity by Avsim's management to allow Ariane to 'rebuild' consumer confidence over the years following the 'Tishma debacle', nothing has really changed at Ariane since it started.Avsim offered to host a product support forum for Ariane ages ago - of course, this offer was never taken up by Ariane and now we hear that 'their own' support forum is not actually theirs, but run by a part-time student on their behalf??? I've enjoyed countless real flights on pretty-well all 737 variants, but never has the Captain asked everyone on board to 'pause' so that he can program something into the FMC.....!Product activation has been a long-term bugbear with Ariane and despite numerous promises, nothing much has changed. But then again, neither has their policy of charging for bug-fixes under the guise of 'new products', being 'insulted' when customers legitimately complain or criticise, and desperately seem to grab people's money in whatever way they can.The main reason for forums like this is to inform and educate.Those who like Ariane and their products, good luck! Enjoy and be happy. Those who have real reasons to be negative, continue to air your legitimate grievances because Ariane do read these forums. Fellow simmers, protracted discussions like this can only make things better unless those like Ariane ignore public opinion and resolutely refuse to make things better and remain as 'remote' as possible. So as long as you're not bashing for bashing sake, keep the discussions going.Eventually the right messages will get through, especially if decisions are made with people's wallets.That's why the likes of PMDG and Level-1 succeed with their public where 'others' don't.Toni.