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### IMPORTANT FOR ALL AIRCRAFT DESIGNERS ###

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Guest Dee Waldron

What you're saying is all well and good Lou. But I just can't get past the ethical problems and questions this program creates, being able to so easily decompile your's or my MDL files and hack them and claim them as their own.As you suggest, I guess I'm too thin skinned for this hobby.Dee WaldronHistoric Jetliners Group

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You're completely justified in your concern over this "tool". What its presence means, provided it comes to fruition, is that you will now need to spend a portion of your resources protecting your work.Since there's no support for copy-protection in FS (until now, MDL files simply employed "security by obscurity" which is essentially no security), the alternative is embedding things to detect plagiarism. Then, of course, you'll also have to spend resources enforcing your rights which, in some countries, amounts to nothing.All in all, it becomes a tradeoff between how much time you spend protecting your creation versus creating it.

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If you look at this slightly different, there may be a massive benefit to the whole community (speaking as a designer for many years as well as a consumer of others fine works):Mayhap this will encourage true Free Software in this community: in place of its Freeware tradition. With Free Software, anyone and his brother are allowed - nay, encouraged - to make any changes to something you release. Depending on the license you release under, this could also include the full ability to sell such works commercially once modified - with an extremely important caveat: that ANY AND ALL internal changes, textures, etc, etc. are released back to the author and the community itself - fully and completely!Of course, the original author retains his/her absolute and full copyright on his/her original work (and of course reserves the option to not release future versions under a Free Software license). And the license he/she does release under must be followed (eg: GNU GPL or LGPL, etc). If it is not followed by some crook, a massive, wide and extremely vocal community of GPL supporters is ready at your back to help you out. And believe me when I say: the GNU GPL (GNU Public License) is vehemently enforced by said community (and thats a HUGE understatement). If this community adopted such a model, it gains the full backing and power of millions of Free Software developers worldwide (and the companies who support it).Now truly take a moment to think about the above.Just think how MUCH this community would grow with such a model as its basis! The knowledge shared between developers would simply fly through the roof... The encouragement of non-developer users to actually participate and become developers in their own right increases ten-fold... The entire community spirit would be improved in unmeasurable ways.Every cloud has its lining (and its shadows). The death of Freeware may not be such a bad thing in such an instance... It just depends upon the mindset of developers and how they wish to react. Not only would this particular instance of "trouble" be cured, but many recent "troubles" as well (such as Ferdy, etc).Food for thought,Elrond

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You know, Elrond, I was contemplating GPLing some stuff. I think that's a great idea. It sure saves having to write up distribution and copyright info on stuff.

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Guest

Ah! but to find that information you would have to do the very thing you are trying to prevent. Hack the new FSG DC10-10 to see why it doesn't transfer.

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Guest

I tried this software now, and I think some major work is needed for his intended release. Of the default MS planes, not one was converted correctly. All have some kind of artifact on screen, or parts are not aligned correctly. I tried it on my own planes, and was amazed that mine didnt show up in the software at all. So apparently I have created models that are not to this program's liking...only problem is I dont know what I did to get that result...maybe because I only use gmax to create dynamics in and use the gamepack to create the MDL file. For 3D work I use Rhino, not gmax...dunno if thats a clue though...

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Hi Peter,I couldn't recommend it enough and am glad to hear you are ready to do so yourself. It solves so many problems this community has been facing for the past few years - increasingly more lately. And it opens up our closed systems and methods to each other for the benefit and learning of all. I too am contemplating going back and re-releasing all of my previous FS works under some form of GPL license. Any future FS work of mine will be Free Software as well.Take care,Elrond

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Hi Elrond,Could you help me out here, I dont get it what your proposing...probably my lack of the english langauge...Could you explain this in simpler langauge...??Thanks..

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Hi Hent,Well, basically, Free Software is exactly like it sounds. You release your work fully and completely out in to the wild. Your package may be exactly like it was before with only pre-compiled binaries (bgl's, mdl's etc)... But by releasing as Free Software, you also commit to providing any of the original source working files made during its development such as the gMax model itself, the custom or stock textures used, uncompiled air files, etc, etc. Each type of project has its own types of source files that go into it of course. As long as you provide the source to your works to anyone who requests it, and release it under one of the many Free Software licenses such as the GNU Public License, Lesser GNU Public License, Mozilla License, etc, etc, you have now enter the Free Software world. You of course retain the full copyright to all of your works. So, thats your part of the bargain.Now whats in it for you?Multiple things. Once you release as Free Software, absolutely ANY changes or improvements made by anybody else to that work MUST be given back to you and the community - its a requirement of all Free Software licenses. Since all of the source to your project is freely available and encouraged for others to build upon, it completely negates the "pirates" because there is nothing to pirate. Anybody and their brother is encouraged to improve your works in any way they see fit: including any commercial enterprise! That may sound strange for a second, but think about it... If the source to your work is freely available, and all changes made to your work by absolutely anybody (commercial or otherwise) MUST be returned back to the public, it completely negates the value to a commercial enterprise or even thieves because its already freely available!And because your work is fully public, others may also learn by example from your work (and you in return of course): they download the sources and open them up in gMax, C++, whatever. Learning by example is the BEST way to foster a huge increase in understanding throughout a community.This also encourages anybody who has a mind to get into development work as well... Since all things become "open", the learning curve is drastically reduced for both newbies and long-time developers. This almost always fosters a boom in quality and quantity of works in such communities.Beyond that, it also fosters team work between once individual or even solitary developers. This and many forums at AVSIM are an excellent resource to learn new tricks and the like, but it can still be a very hard process to track down information or methods from the specific people who have it. Since Free Software is completely open, it makes it much easier to learn by example from your fellow developers... Community spirit is usually lifted in leaps and bounds as well, and improves such valuable resources as these forums.Finally, and to many the most important aspect, the Free Software community is absolutely HUGE... There are millions of Free Software developers worldwide, including many extremely successful commercial enterprises such as Red Hat, Mandrake, IBM, Sun Microsystems, and the list goes on and on. Once a community joins the Free Software way, this extremely large and extremely vocal community stands behind you when thieves and crooks attempt to break your Free Software license. Instead of a tiny niche of developers that exist for Flight Simulator (and believe me, we ARE tiny), we "join" with a huge quantity of well organized members worldwide. Any shenanigans the likes that Ferdy pulls would gain worldwide audience to ALL Free Software developers: great and small. I can't stress here how vocal they can be when someone intentionally breaks a Free Software license... It can be astounding.If you'd like to learn more, here are a few resources to check out:A very good definition (that blows mine away :-)) is here:http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.htmlOne of the most popular Free Software licenses, the GNU GPL (among many to choose from that fit your needs):http://www.opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license.phpA list and reading for a wide variety of Free Software licenses:http://www.opensource.org/licensesThe home of the free software movement:http://www.gnu.orgA massive, massive collection of Free Software projects of all kinds:http://www.sourceforge.netOne of the best sites on the net to keep abreast and learn about the Free Software issues (and many, many other things):http://slashdot.orgSorry for the lengthy reply, but hope that helps,Elrond

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Hi Elrond,What you are saying here is actually rather fantastic...You're right, a change of thinking IS needed, and you certainly got ME thinking! Mind you, I'm not an FS designer in any way (I have often thought of trying it, but there never seem to be enough time :), but I am a software developer, who would also hate to see MY programs hacked and sold (or maybe I should consider it a compliment :)Anyway, your input got me thinking - a lot! Thanks!BRGDSSven Sorensen, EKCH

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Note that if you release under the GPL (GNU General Public License), anyone that includes your stuff in theirs (not just bundled but included as part of their work) must also release theirs under GPL. This maintains your component as free, but some people may end up not using yours because they don't want to be under GPL.An alternative is to use the LGPL. This license is intended for libraries in that you can use an LGPL component in your proprietary stuff without violating the license. However, it also means someone can hide your stuff within theirs.Another alternative is to release your stuff under GPL and your own license and let the receiver choose which license they want to use. This strategy if often used so that those who accept GPL and release under GPL can use the stuff for free; those who don't accept GPL usually have to pay to use a proprietary license and thereby compensate the author in exchange for the right to use free software in a proprietary product.It's best to read the licenses fully before using them so that you really understand how they work. The GNU web site also has an FAQ on all this.There are also other licenses for free software, some of which are GPL-compatible, that may suit you. Links are available on the GNU site.Oh, one last thing. Free does not mean it doesn't cost anything. You and others can still sell your stuff for money under GPL but they have to make the source available at no charge. As GNU puts it, the free in free software is like free speech, not free beer.So, what happens if you release your stuff under GPL and change your mind later? Well, you still own the rights to your work so you can release future versions under some other license if you want. The version(s) that were under GPL will continue to be out there.

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And here two examples of other programms used to hack files:gau2bmb by Chuck DomeAirEd by William RothThe programm you are talking about is new but the problem is old.Has somebody blamed Chuck Dome ",already defined 'one of the Deans' of the flight simming community" (AVSIM News, August 17 2002) or William Roth to publish a tool somebody can use to breake the copyrights?Have a look at the avsim file library and you can find tons of gauges only the bitmap is modified. I don't like breaking copyrights but there is only one way to avoid this: Don't publish files.Hallo Microsoft, please stop producing a game with files everybody can modify and please stop publishing SDKs.It is the same problem with the people shooting each other: Nobody blames "Smith and Wesson" for sellings weapons, it is the "misbehaviour" of the people using it!Carsten

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Guest

Elrond, you really have me thinking I may give this a go.It does make a "cranky" sort of sense.Tell you what, mail me, I may need some guidance and a liittle more convincing. IF that goes alright, I'll think about releasing my models this way instead of sitting on them, which is the alternative as I see it.I like the sound of this as long as I can see how to make it work correctly.Thanks for the info so far. Thought provoking to say the least! :()I'd feel a tad happier if maybe others wanted to go this route as a group of people supporting the concept too! Drop me a line if that's on your mind also, maybe we can help each other though this slightly odd transition.

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Ok, I've got a few responses here...not just to this post, but to the whole discussion so far.1) As someone else pointed out, Microsoft's model format is proprietary. They choose how to distribute it, and they have chosen not to distribute it to the general public. All we have are compilers for it (the gMax plugin and the upcoming FSDS2).2) I was not aware of the MDL2DXF program, but even that does not set a precedent in this case. Microsoft may have been sloppy and let that one go, but the FS2002 MDL format is a new format, and they have every right to protect it, regardless of how they have protected other formats in the past.3) Someone mentioned GIF; GIF is most certainly a protected format. If you publish GIF images, it is only legal to do so with approved software whose designers have paid fees to Unisys. Read the licensing information here: http://www.unisys.com/about__unisys/lzw/4) Carsten is correct in pointing out that .air and .gau files are already reverse-engineered; I will point out as well that the old .#af texture formats were as well. Microsoft has never given us a utility to allow us to compile .air files, so the community found its own way with William Roth's program. Is there a problem with people stealing sections from others' .air files? Yes. Would we have been better off having Microsoft release a compiler without a decompiler? I think that is absolutely the case. Certainly, I don't hold this against William Roth, Chuck Dome, or the designers of any of the texture decompilers. Are these programs illegal? Probably, yes. But Microsoft did not release an alternative, and they have chosen not to stop these decompilers because they know that it is in their best interest that the freeware community have tools to develop third-party addons. In the case of the FS2002 MDL format, Microsoft has provided a compiler. We should not allow ourselves to have more copyright problems just because we already have some (in the form of .air files, etc). We don't need them, so let's avoid them. Microsoft can, and I hope they will, block the release of this program.5) A couple people have made the argument that it is not the tool being used, but the people using the tool, who are the problem, and therefore we cannot stop the production of this program. That argument just doesn't hold up. It is illegal in the US--and most countries of the world (including Germany, I'm sure) share reciprocal copyright agreements with the US--to produce a tool that aids in copyright infringement, unless that infringement falls under the concept of "fair use." The VCR was nearly outlawed when it was first invented, but it was saved by "fair use." Can you think of any reason why having access to the source code here falls under "fair use?" I certainly can't.So, I'm going to do some more research on this product and email tell_fs@microsoft.com and piracy@microsoft.com. I hope some of you will join me.Matt

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Ok...I just read the dates on this thread...how did I miss this discussion the first time? Anyway, I visited the site, and it looks like the battle's already been won. My point #6, which I forgot to add earlier, still applies:6) If you wish to release under GPL or as Public Domain, you're certainly free to do so, and you can make it even easier for people by sharing your source files in www.freeflightdesign.comMatt

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