Finally some hope

[Guest CRJ700FO]

>I think you got that backwards. What you meant to say was the>airlines think that a $200 plane ticket isn't enough. Which>of course is not accurate.compare the cost of a flight from LA to NYC from 1980 to today. i think you'll be a little shocked and how less it is today. how much more is gas now? how much more now are the lease payments on the a/c? the only thing they can reduce is labor.no doubt passengers are fickle. during the 90's they demanded more "flexibility" in scheduling and thus more flights were added, but to control costs they use regional aircraft. now with a 1950's FAA system handling modern a/c and now add in RJ's further clogging the system you have our current situation.you have the same situation with the FAA. the controllers of today are complaining about the same crap that the former controllers were complaining about when they were fired by reagan. they are reaping what they sowed.and it isn't the airlines only, all of corporate america is slimmed down and running on razor thin margins.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"what makes you think the CA/FO/FA wanted to sit and listen to complaints for 3 hours also? the smaller ticket price leads to smaller revenues which has led to drastic reductions in staff thus not allowing you to leave the aircraft as there is no one there to let you off. they can let you off on the ramp and be arrested / accosted by TSA for a security violation? yes that's fair."If that's true, then something has to be done to change it. The airlines aren't changing it--they have the means to raise their fares. This happened to me eight years ago and 23 years ago respectively--and it keeps happening, and happening again. Everyone blames everyone else--you blame the passengers wanting cheap fares, the others blame the government. I didn't choose my flight. I was there because I had to be."as far as thinking airline ees make too much you are sadly mistaken. when you are away from home 19+ nights a month, have "rest" rules worse than the trucking industry, and have your job on the line every day then perhaps you can comment. does your IT customers entrust their very life with you on EVERYTHING you are doing while working for them? how much is that worth to you?"That's a stretch to say that to someone you don't know. I never said they were paid too much. But I've worked for less and don't dump on people asking questions about how they're treated. You seemed po'd that people think working on an airline is like a nirvana. Until two years ago, my "mystical" IT life (as you seem to paint it) made the schedule you cite above seem like nirvana. I was home one day during the December following my daughters birth so YOU could have a friggin' cheap hotel room. Twelve hour shifts, our two man teams had to give our clients 24x7 coverage. All for less than $40K a year, not a lot for a man in the late 90's with a new child and a wife recovering from a hard childbirth.Yes, my customers entrust their lives to me. And I've put mine on the line for them. During the Los Alamos fires, I was there trying to set up facilities so my customers could get the funds they needed to rebuild their lives. I was out of the hotel business by then and providing WAN support for the insurance industry. I remember driving through a smoked filled, vacant city, in order to salvage what I could to set up an office in Santa Fe. I also remember telling my wife with five minutes notice that she'd have to take care of our then five month old baby alone, as I was asked to go.I.T. is 24x7 so you can have cheap insurance, airline fares, junk food--catch my drift?So how FRIGGIN DARE YOU try to paint me as ignorant when you show so much ignorance about other people's lives.'Nuff saidJC

[Mace 1,902]

That is a bad bill and I would urge your congressperson/senator to vote against it.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2585 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2gb Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8 (1T), WD 150 gig 10000rpm Raptor, WD 250gig 7200rpm SATA2, Seagate 120gb 5400 rpm external HD, CoolerMaster Praetorian

[RobertVA 0]

I'm thinking it's time to:Change ground clearance policies so that planes aren't cleared to taxi unless there's a reasonable probability they will be able to taxi ALL THE WAY to the hold stop line and obtain takeoff clearance shortly after reaching it. Basically shift the waiting to the concourse waiting areas at the gates instead of a having a line of aircraft on the taxiway. If an arriving flight needs a gate, the air line will just be required to cancel a departing flight or postpone bringing the departing aircraft up to the gate for loading.If enough planes can't be handled during the peak demand period of the day than some people are going to have to stay put or travel during off peak periods AND airline schedules or equipment usage (bigger planes with more seats) changed to reflect that. Many airports are under utilized in the early AM hours anyway.

[michal 44]

>That is a bad bill and I would urge your>congressperson/senator to vote against it.I agree. Lets make those politicians think first before thay act. And if they are so bent on improving our air transportation system let them explain how come it takes 25 years to add a single runway at ORD (court battles, environmental studies, etc.). Politicians create the problem in the first place and then they cover their own stupidity with another silly legislation.Michael J.http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9320/apollo17vf7.jpg

[Guest CRJ700FO]

>So how FRIGGIN DARE YOU try to paint me as ignorant when you>show so much ignorance about other people's lives.now you know how i feel when non aviation people not employed by the airlines speak about our industry (including congressman).

[Guest CRJ700FO]

>That's a stretch to say that to someone you don't know. I>never said they were paid too much. But I've worked for less>and don't dump on people asking questions about how they're>treated. You seemed po'd that people think working on an>airline is like a nirvana. Until two years ago, my "mystical">IT life (as you seem to paint it) made the schedule you cite>above seem like nirvana. I was home one day during the>December following my daughters birth so YOU could have a>friggin' cheap hotel room. Twelve hour shifts, our two man>teams had to give our clients 24x7 coverage. All for less>than $40K a year, not a lot for a man in the late 90's with a>new child and a wife recovering from a hard childbirth.what you described is a typical monthly schedule for most crewmembers, both FA's and pilots. i will only state what you told me: i am sure if you didn't do it, someone else would fill in.

[Guest CRJ700FO]

if you want to stop airlines from keeping people on planes for long times, simply don't fly that airline again. money talks. why is jetblue one of the most progressive airlines relating to these matters? because they were afraid their valentines day massacre ruined the airline.the airlines that TRULY care about customer service, for example Midwest Airlines, it's funny how you never hear these stories about them.

[Guest PARADISE]

>>You know John, you're right. I can remember the airline>days>>when it was going through it's hijacking phases in the>1960's>>and 70's,(although I was very young). Even there the>hijackers>>would allow basic necesities onboard. >>I'm all for having passengers de-plane on the tarmac or>>taxiway if the flight is "grounded" for an extensive amount>of>>time. They can be bussed back to the terminal area and then>>they (the customer) can decide what to do. They are after>all>>the boss, since when they purchased that ticket they "hired">>the airline to do a job for them.>>couldn't be further from the truth. so we have 150 "bosses" on>the airplane with 150 opinions and comments?>Be fair now. If you're going to comment on a quote, please include the entire quote. As I stated further down, the airline alone cannot make the final decision on what to do with an aircraft that's stranded on the ground. The FAA has the final authority on that and the airline has to abide by its rules and regulations.But yes, a customer (which is what a passenger is) is the ultimate "boss" and their opinions and comments should matter very much. Without them most of us wouldn't have jobs in aviation. This is basic 'Customer Relations 101', which some airlines completely neglect. This is one of the reasons that bills like this are proposed on the senate floor because when an industry can't meet the expectations that the consumers demand they ( the consumers ) think that the government should step in to do something and everything will be made alright.I think you and I can both agree that the government alone cannot fix this problem. It's going to take an entirely different approach than what we're used to to fix this mess. What? I don't know.John

[Guest CRJ700FO]

>Be fair now. If you're going to comment on a quote, please>include the entire quote. As I stated further down, the>airline alone cannot make the final decision on what to do>with an aircraft that's stranded on the ground. The FAA has>the final authority on that and the airline has to abide by>its rules and regulations.no you were correct in the later paragraphs and here. i was simply making a point about the "boss". an airline could easily go back to the gate without FAA permission, the problem is there is no gate or no one there to man the gate.>But yes, a customer (which is what a passenger is) is the>ultimate "boss" and their opinions and comments should matter>very much. Without them most of us wouldn't have jobs in>aviation. This is basic 'Customer Relations 101', which some>airlines completely neglect. This is one of the reasons that>bills like this are proposed on the senate floor because when>an industry can't meet the expectations that the consumers>demand they ( the consumers ) think that the government should>step in to do something and everything will be made alright.>I think you and I can both agree that the government alone>cannot fix this problem. It's going to take an entirely>different approach than what we're used to to fix this mess.>What? I don't know.SWA, one of the most customer focused airlines out there, lists customers after employees in their importance.I completely agree that the government alone cannot fix. The airlines cannot alone fix it, they can't even police themselves for goodness sakes.

[Ferd_Berful 2]

Stop claiming that passengers have the right to do this or be treated like that. Where do you think they get these rights from, did I miss something in the bill of rights about air travel?. You can choose whatever airline you like and if it does not work out go elsewhere. Airline passengers will not pay more for better service. They choose cheap seats. Period. "If employees don't feel duly compensated, others will be happy to step in."So you get what you pay for which is less experienced pilots (kentucky crash, many more to come), inability to absorb delays because crews are scheduled for longer days approaching limits, no more backup equipment, etc...It is bus travel. Passengers show up in cut off jeans and flip flops and expect concorde service. Charter a jet or sit down and shut up, cheapskates.

[Guest CRJ700FO]

>Stop claiming that passengers have the right to do this or be>treated like that. Where do you think they get these rights>from, did I miss something in the bill of rights about air>travel?. You can choose whatever airline you like and if it>does not work out go elsewhere. Airline passengers will not>pay more for better service. They choose cheap seats. Period.>"If employees don't feel duly compensated, others will be>happy to step in.">So you get what you pay for which is less experienced pilots>(kentucky crash, many more to come), inability to absorb>delays because crews are scheduled for longer days approaching>limits, no more backup equipment, etc...It is bus travel.>Passengers show up in cut off jeans and flip flops and expect>concorde service. Charter a jet or sit down and shut up,>cheapskates.while i agree with the overall senitment, i would like to point out the kentucky comair accident had a very experienced crew. it was simply an accident that experience has nothing to do with. i can remember a delta and northwest crew forgetting to set the flaps for takeoff and crashing and killing many people in DTW and DFW.

[Ferd_Berful 2]

Clay, who had 4,700 hours in the air, and Polehinke, with 5,424. You are right about that. I withdraw my referance to the comair crash. But I stand by the point of the statement. I had a brief experience as an RJ captain and when a new hire FO asks why he can't find any "J Routes" and you see he is looking on a Low Chart you start to wonder. They pay these guys $20 an flight hour, (cheaper seats) who do they think they are going to get. Im not saying they are bad guys or bad pilots, they grabbed an oppurtunity any pilot might, but they are in over their heads. I had one guy let go of the controls as he was blowing through the localizer (IMC into DCA) and say "you got it!" (after letting go). I quit that job because it takes 2 guys to operate the airplane and that company is just ripe for a crash. Its not FS9. Its flying IMC into LaGuardia or Philadelphia on a friday evening with non stop radio communications going on and runway changes 10 miles from the airport, Descend, turn and slow while you reconfigure for approach and brief a new approach, Its busy busy busy and its takes teamwork and competance and it's so much fun. Unfortunately, it is cheaper to kill people every so often than to invest in quality pilots, flight attendants, mechanics etc...

[Guest CRJ700FO]

>Clay, who had 4,700 hours in the air, and Polehinke, with>5,424. You are right about that. I withdraw my referance to>the comair crash. But I stand by the point of the statement. I>had a brief experience as an RJ captain and when a new hire FO>asks why he can't find any "J Routes" and you see he is>looking on a Low Chart you start to wonder. They pay these>guys $20 an flight hour, (cheaper seats) who do they think>they are going to get. Im not saying they are bad guys or bad>pilots, they grabbed an oppurtunity any pilot might, but they>are in over their heads. I had one guy let go of the controls>as he was blowing through the localizer (IMC into DCA) and say>"you got it!" (after letting go). I quit that job because it>takes 2 guys to operate the airplane and that company is just>ripe for a crash. Its not FS9. Its flying IMC into LaGuardia>or Philadelphia on a friday evening with non stop radio>communications going on and runway changes 10 miles from the>airport, Descend, turn and slow while you reconfigure for>approach and brief a new approach, Its busy busy busy and its>takes teamwork and competance and it's so much fun.>Unfortunately, it is cheaper to kill people every so often>than to invest in quality pilots, flight attendants, mechanics>etc...I had an FO state, "My first actual" when we entered a cloud in a 1900D. He had trained where it was sunny all the time and all his instrument time was simulated.