Simple Traffic Pattern Question

[Great Ozzie 101]

Was, yes... most of my instructing was done out of there but I had the good fortune of being able to work out of Indpls Terry also (TYQ - Indpls Executive now).It is a nice place to be since there is a very good mix of airports from Boone Co. (6I4 3600x30... which feels like a long carrier) to Indpls Intl. which is a blast to fly into at nite (with the CATII/III lighting systems for 5L/5R). It also gives you an opportunity to work with ground/tower/approach controllers. The Class C airspace was never a hassle; I mean arriving/departing Eagle Creek I was like the proverbial chameleon with one eye scanning for traffic and the other caged to the altimeter. If you were careful it was never a problem. And the benefit was if you wanted an extra set of eyeballs, Indy Approach could oblige you most of the time.Rob O.

[Great Ozzie 101]

Yes mgh... I saw your post... and I have read a variation of this is done in New Zealand.Like I said, this topic has been a big subject of debate for years and even today, if you ask 10 different flight instructors you will most likely get 10 different answers.And again I will say it can't be done in a practical sense at every airport... Eagle Creek Airpark (EYE) being a good example because:That will require one to contact Indpls App Con as it puts you in the Indpls Class C airspace. Then they will vector you to a point where they feel they can safely "release you". To me of greater importance is the FAA Advisory Circular, AC90-66A, 'Recommended Standard Traffic Patterns and Practices for Aeronautical Operations at Airports Without Operating Control Towers' states in paragraph 8(:( that "Arriving aircraft should be at the appropriate traffic pattern altitude before entering the traffic pattern." Therefore, descent from higher to TPA in the traffic pattern is a non-standard procedure.Also I can say with relative certainty that you won't be allowed to overfly the airport toward the SW so that you can descend and reverse course, as this puts one in the approach path of KIND's Rwys 23R and 23L.You will find there are pro and cons to any variation of arrival procedure. For example, the primary one I would use at Eagle Creek coming in from the Northwest over the Reservoir (at TPA... mid-field crosswind to left turn onto downwind for Rwy 21) bothers me a bit because of the possibility of meeting traffic head on (those making the standard entry as diagramed in the AIM even though this risk is very low). However, the benefits are: 1) I have a better shot at seeing inbound IFR traffic making a straight-in to Rwy 21 if they go missed or circle to land, 2) I can certainly see departing traffic, 3) I should have no problem entering (and it was never a problem) if I need to allow for spacing from an aircraft that has departed and 4) Most importantly, the procedure has been established by AOPA (they work closely with the FAA for these kinds of things) and it's published in their Safety Advisory. "A turn is made onto the cross wind leg to overfly the takeoff end of the runway still at circuit height. This obviously gice adequate separation from aircraft that are taking off."Not necessarily; at some airports one needs to watch for departing turbine aircraft. This is certainly the case at Eagle Creek."The only conflict is when making the left turn onto the downwind leg but this should be with aircraft already in the circuit at the same height and approaching from your right."No sir, this in not accurate. A conflict can arise anywhere in the pattern. You should always check to your right before turning left no matter where you are in the pattern. As I said above: "One of the most critical collision situations is a faster low-wing airplane overtaking and descending onto a high-wing aircraft while on final approach." Most mid-air collisions occur on final approach.This is all about conducting a safe flight (not about what

[Tim Arnot 5]

Here in Europe, the standard procedure for joining the circuit pattern is the 'Standard Overhead Join' http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_gad_oheadjoin_poster.pdf - Fly overhead the field at 2000ft, with the runway on your left (for a left-hand circuit). If the opposite runway is in use, make a 180 degree left turn, staying at 2000ft to be overhead the correct runway, again with the threshold on your left. Now make a 180 degree descending turn on the 'dead' side of the circuit, to cross the runway again at circuit height, "crosswind". Then follow the circuit as normal. The diagram probably explains it better!This is the standard join (hence the name), although local procedures may vary. Such variations will be published in the flight guides, charts and so on. Your options when approaching from the dead side are essentially * circle overhead in the circuit direction until you have determined the runway in use, and continue circling until you can descend on the dead side. NEVER descend on the active side of the runway!* If the runway is known, you could fly overhead the reciprocal runway, turn through 180 for a standard overhead join, or join on the crosswind leg. Some places (typically towered fields) might even allow for a right base join.Of course you should always pay consideration to other traffic - this is simply good airmanship. Listening on the radio will give you a clue to what is going on, but bear in mind that aircraft may be non-radio, and nothing beats the Mk 1 eyeball.

[Great Ozzie 101]

Ok mgh... I think I owe you a "half apology" as...Tim's picture crystallized what you were referring to and I was speaking strictly from a U.S. procedures standpoint. I mean I stick by what I say, but at the same time I have no clue regarding mid-airs in the UK.Btw, Thanks for that link Tim. This appears to be a very "clean" method and a much more appropriate/organized way of pattern entry.For everything that the govt. (here) and private organizations like AOPA do to enhance safety, this lack of a standardized Traffic Pattern Procedure is one area I feel where we are sorely lacking. I mean there a literally a dozen ways to Sunday for traffic pattern entry in the U.S. and no real standardization for a single TPA (traffic pattern altitude). My understanding is Turbine aircraft use 1500' AGL, 1000' is recommended for light a/c unless otherwise published in the A/FD, then it could be anything... years ago the standard was 800' AGL (which I knew many who used that). It's a mess (to me) and one big reason why I think there are so many mid-airs.Adopting this "Standard Overhead Join" would go a long way to improving safety imo. There's are issues like overlying (Class C and :( airspace and aircraft using IFR approaches in VMC, but certainly something could be worked out as I am sure it has been in the UK.Rob O.

[mgh 89]

No problem. Misunderstandings happen and can be resolved like this in a civilised fashion. Tim explained the position more clearly than I did.

[Tim Arnot 5]

There are plenty of airfields that either modify the standard, have right-hand circuits or don't allow overhead joins, usually due to noise sensitivity, terrain or airspace considerations. We don't have any Class B or C , but we do have Class A down to 2500ft around London, and several GA airfields actually inside the Class A Heathrow CTR, where obviously, special procedures apply.

[mgh 89]

I used to fly from Fairoaks which is one of the GA airfields. This is withinn the London CTR which is Class A from SFC to 2500ft there. Aircraft using are deemed to have been given a Sprecial VFR clearance and must use a specially defined corridor on approach and departure.

[Great Ozzie 101]

Ah no mgh.... this is totally on me... my mouth engaged before my brain did ;-)Thanks for saying that tho... makes me feel like less of an idiot :-D(Btw let's blame Jeff, as he's the one who started this "simple" thread" :-DDD. j/k of course).Rob O.

[JHepburn 0]

Hey, easy there!I'm finally back and trying to find time to fly. It's been a long few weeks. I'm hoping to resurrect this thread over the weekend with more questions...haha!Jeff HepburnKDEN

[Great Ozzie 101]

:-P