How damaging is piracy?

[byork 2,259]

"Specifically quoted from the article: (Mr. Kyung-Won Kim, then (1986)Ambassador to the US from South Korea) "historically, Koreans have not viewed intellectual discoveries or scientific inventions as the private property of their discoverers or inventors. New ideas or technologies were "public goods" for everybody to share freely. Cultural esteem rather than material gain was the incentive for creativity."That still doesn't legitimize piracy.Besides, the Korean example was a poor one because I am intimately familiar with the place. Of course it's very difficult for a westerner like myself to ever really make sense of the Asian mindset (because the thinking is just so totally different), but my feeling is they know that what they're doing is wrong if they engage in piracy. They just don't care. Like a lot of westerners don't care either.But you can be assured that you if you ever claimed Kimchie to be your national dish (pirate it basically), the Koreans would be on your door step protesting... they may even cut off a finger or two.... The "public good" argument would not apply :-)Besides, I get a lot of sales from Korea, so at least there is an element that believes that piracy is wrong.-Bryan

[bob.bernstein 0]

<>Without reading the article...you characterized the thinking as "modern day hodgepodge"? I gave you the complete reference, you really have no excuse to mindlessly debunk the quality of thinking behind the ideas. I'd say if you can't bring yourself to read an article, your own point of view becomes difficult to defend.If you are afraid to lose your ability to feel like a victim...don't worry. You can still find folks to share your sense of being victimized. To not consider learning new ideas thou....yuck...bad way to be imho. Good luck.Best,Bob

[bob.bernstein 0]

The word "legitimize" is loaded, as the developing world easily defends the practice by redefining legitimate. What you mean is legitimize it within western context...well...of course, I'm not suggesting anyone who uses western thinking as their context also uses the developing world thinking as their context simultaneously. That's nonsensical. So..if the discussion is only for western people from economically developed nations, that's different, but this is the world wide web, so I thought it would be helpful to provide a world wide viewpoint.I notice that much of the evidence provided by Microsoft for their damages to piracy do indeed come from asia, and therefore, the discussion tends to mix world contexts quite liberally, and therefore speaking only from a western mindset appears to be out of balance.Best,Bob

[bob.bernstein 0]

<>Ron, your post is interesting on several levels, sorry for the multiple responses...You ask me to get a grip and then you state something very intriquing. You do realize that this concept of theft (from the beginning) has been consistently defined by those in power to apply to those without power?Is it theft when despotic governments take from their people? Was it theft when Senetor MaCarthy ruined the careers of actors and directors? Is it theft to steal a loaf of bread when your kids are starving in a society that denies work to your "caste"? was it theft when America imported slaves from Africa? Is it therefore theft to profit from legitimate sale of goods produced by those slaves? Was it theft when Northern enterprisers "rescued" slaves from their "owners"? Is it theft that Bell was awarded a patent for the telephone? Is it theft when publically funded colleges award scholorships to undeserving student althelets? Is it theft when tax dollars are channeled into politically motivated projects. Is the tax on American Tea theft in the eyes of Brits of 1770? How bout Colonists of the same period? Is it theft when the USA took rocket secrets from the #####? The answer to all these questions is yes and no. It depends on your perspective. The scorn and redicule you refer to is again in the context of "voice". Power provides voice, and those that get heard are those in power. I would say one thing is consistent from the beginning, that those in power have consistently defined the world to assure that power is retained, including both the law and the histories. Not much else is sure as you rarely get to read history from the perspective of the powerless.Cheers,Bob

[byork 2,259]

Bob,I know what you're trying to say, but I think the whole cultural relativism argument is a little bit 'too pure', so to speak.I agree 100 percent that some other countries have more liberal attitudes toward intellectual property rights, etc., but there is still a basic understanding that outright theft is wrong. South Korea, for example, has a large software industry that caters to the Korean market. If piracy was as purely socially acceptable as one might think it is in Asia, the software industry there would have died a long time ago.Same with China. Same with India. Or any other developing country.So a lot of these Asian countries may have looser views toward piracy than western countries... but at the end of the day they still know it's wrong.And besides, we're dealing in a context of people who are connected to the internet, and who have the technical skill to use flightsim software.It's not like we're dealing with some obscure native tribe from Papa New Guinea who have no word in their language for "private property" ... -Bryan

[N400QW 205]

Give us all break Bob. The article you cite is as nonsensical as your advocacy of it:-) Oh by the way, though we all are victims of piracy/theft I'm not posting as a victim.I'm posting to cut through the BS and rationalization to the real truth of the matter. Plain and simply put...theft is wrong, not right:-)-------------------------------------------------------------------pi

[bob.bernstein 0]

<>Now ur makin me smile! Your post is grounded and well thought out. Thanks for the discourse. I agree with you on a basic level, yet I think there is a point to cultural relativism for companies with the global presence of a Microsoft, a reach that transcends the considerations involved here with a tiny internet cottage industry.If you're powerless due to your size in a cottage industry, then your choices are limited to deal with the western expectation for following the rules, and the obvious reality in place.You can feel frustrated and fuss about it, or not. You can vote, you can propose legislation, you can find creative ways to profit because of piracy as the legend of Msoft goes, you can do a variety of things, but complain seems to be the only one not worthwhile.And to declare your company bankrupt due to piracy is as ludicrous as declaring my basketball career ruined due to the presence of gravity.Cheers,Bob

[bob.bernstein 0]

Ok Ron...I get it...you're not interested in thoughtful discussion.Fair enough. Simplistic thinking rules here.Cheers,Bob

[bob.bernstein 0]

Ron...sorry, I know I promised to leave you alone, but something just occurred to me.You represent the powerful in your writing.Intellectual discussion is rejected. Attempts to think creatively and see other perspectives are rediculed. Perhaps you feel that that other's emotional momentum supports you and therefore bravado is safe.These are very common control techniques employed by powerbrokers. Your last post..with the dictionary quote and all...its classic. People do this when ideas present risk, so power replaces thinking. Even thou you will reject this commentary out of hand (perposturous!!! you'll say)...perhaps you'll realize what I mean in the middle of the night.Best,Bob

[N400QW 205]

Bob, you are correct when you refer to the effective enforcement of software licensing laws and regulations.I'm not the author of recent threads regarding software theft, only an invited participant. I've been asked to present a viewpoint and have no qualms about presenting an absolute perspective as opposed to the vaugeries of a relativist view. Those who rationalize wrong behaviour by calling wrong right fill prisons around the world today.It can and should be argued that there are far more societies on the planet who consider theft to be an act worthy of both prevention and punishment than not.I suspect that you still lock your house, car, bank accounts, and any other thing of value to prevent theft of your belongings and would be the first to call the proper enforcement authorities upon discovering that your property was no longer in your possesion.:-)

[N400QW 205]

>Ron...sorry, I know I promised to leave you alone, but>something just occurred to me.>>You represent the powerful in your writing.>>Intellectual discussion is rejected. Attempts to think>creatively and see other perspectives are rediculed. Perhaps>you feel that that other's emotional momentum supports you and>therefore bravado is safe.>>These are very common control techniques employed by>powerbrokers. Your last post..with the dictionary quote and>all...its classic. People do this when ideas present risk, so>power replaces thinking. >>Even thou you will reject this commentary out of hand>(perposturous!!! you'll say)...perhaps you'll realize what I>mean in the middle of the night.>>>Best,>Bob>Bob, just to be clear. I'm no stranger to intellectual discussion. I'm actually presenting a pro/con argument in answer to your relativist postings.The fact that I present an absoluteist argument and reject the relativist view has nothing whatsoever to do with the what you term "power brokering". To the contrary, it has all to do with a belief system that is engrained in the majority of societies on the planet. One such example would be the Islamic view/punishment of thieves. Quite a contrast to the Korean view wouldn't you say?:-)I've provided food for your thought and have no reservations about having an extremely common sense view of the world we all live in.At some point in time you might become weary of relativism and the nonsensical views of those who never see black and white but prefer the grey dull world of rationalization.Perhaps this argument will become clearer to you in the middle of the night:-)

[bob.bernstein 0]

Good night, and sleep tight Ron.

[mgh 89]

Software piracy is wrong when because it's against the law.Let's not forget that copyright, design, and patents - Intellecual Property (IP) - are r artifical constructs that are governed by law. That's why there can be differences between countries.The law governs the balance of rights as between the intellecual property owners and the rest of the community. The owners of IP can only enforce rights granted by law.For example, in the UK (and the EU?) it is not an infringement of copyright for a lawful user to make backup/archive copies of software. It's also not an infringement to decompile a program provided certain conditions are met.The law also says that any clause in an EULA that purports to limit this is void. The consequence of this is that the IP owner can't impose whatever conditions he likes on users.It's not surprising that different counries take different views on the matter. Views in the UK have changed. At one time it was acceptable for the king to reward his supporters by granting them patents - that way he didn't have to bribe them himself - they could extort money directly from the public!

[Guest zzmikezz]

Bob, It is not theft per se to steal bread if your children are starving. However, it is "taking", and absent the starvation issue it would in fact be theft. It comes under a legal doctrine of

[bob.bernstein 0]

Thanks Mike, a very thoughtful post. You've raised the bar for discourse! Essentially, I agree with your points, however the final paragraph I don't support. Given the UgLugs recognize that their behavior is defined as theft in our culture, and that they respect honesty in the abstract, they are still quite likely uninspired to change their behavior beyond the local norm. The local norms capture the habits and natural reaction of the population.Best,Bob