United, jetBlue, or American?

[Guest]

>>>>Actually, jwenting' assertion is fundamentally correct. And>>this is 20+ years with the majors and 3 as a business owner>>providing services in the industry talking.>>>>Regards,>>Jeff>>>>The fundamental function of the union is to provide me, as an>individual working pilot, the insulation from management>pressure to take actions that keep the company profitable but>put myself and my plane and passengers at physical risk. >Think about that the next time you board a plane and hope that>your pilot's union is stronger than the one that Captain>Langford had.No Kevin. That may be what they claim, but it's not what they are and hasn't been in decades.They've devolved into extortionists who squeeze companies into bankruptcy for the short term gains of a few people, usually their own cadre.The ComAir case of a few years ago is typical, where union strikes to get massive pay increases for a few pilots (already the highest paid staff in the company) caused the company to have to lay off some 20.000 employees, cancel aircraft orders (causing more layoffs in supplying industry), and brought the airline near destruction.Risk to passengers and crew is the furthest from union staff minds.It's all about their own money and power.The people who care about risk to passengers and crew are the ones in the airlines marketing and legal department, and MAYBE the maintenance workers.All the pilots seem to care about is doing as little work as possible while getting paid as much as possible (and maybe "scoring" some flight attendants during nighttime layovers in remote places).

[KevinAu 441]

>>No Kevin. That may be what they claim, but it's not what they>are and hasn't been in decades.>>They've devolved into extortionists who squeeze companies into>bankruptcy for the short term gains of a few people, usually>their own cadre.>>The ComAir case of a few years ago is typical, where union>strikes to get massive pay increases for a few pilots (already>the highest paid staff in the company) caused the company to>have to lay off some 20.000 employees, cancel aircraft orders>(causing more layoffs in supplying industry), and brought the>airline near destruction.>>Risk to passengers and crew is the furthest from union staff>minds.>It's all about their own money and power.>>The people who care about risk to passengers and crew are the>ones in the airlines marketing and legal department, and MAYBE>the maintenance workers.>All the pilots seem to care about is doing as little work as>possible while getting paid as much as possible (and maybe>"scoring" some flight attendants during nighttime layovers in>remote places).Wow, you really haven't the foggiest idea what the unions do jwenting. All you know is what you thought you saw in the media and your own assinine, superficial knowledge and view of the world and the people in it. You have absolutely no idea what pilots care about either, since you are obviously not one. And to say that the only ones who care are the admen and lawyers? I am not sure if you are trying to be funny, a short little troll, or just incredibly naive, warped and stupid.Kevin AuALPA member

[Cessnaflyer 56]

Wow that was the most insane post I've read here in a long time. So you are saying that the pilots don't care if they live at the end of the work day?I hope the pilots are the most highly paid! They have gone through the most training and education. There are very few pilot's now that have less then bachelor degrees in some sort of field. Not too many people in the world are qualified enough to operate something at near the speed of sound, in altitudes that are prohibitive to many life forms, and know more about physics, meterology and advanced math. When you carry nearly 500 people a day safely under these conditions then you can talk.Or do you already do this for Virgin America, Skybus, or JetBlue?

[Guest]

the pilots may care about themselves, but they couldn't care less about the passengers.It's well known that passengers are considered pieces of cargo, nothing more nothing less (in fact they're worse than regular cargo as the profit margin is lower).To claim that the unions are there for the safety and comfort of the passengers is downright laughable. They're there for only two things: money and power (both economic and political).It's the company who cares about the passengers, as without happy passengers they have a PR disaster on their hands.Unions abuse that fact by using disruption of service to pressure airlines into giving them (and pilots) more money and power to the detriment of the company itself, leaving airlines (in this case) in severe financial trouble.That's what unions do, though of course their members will deny it as they are the ones to reap the benefits of it...

[Guest Jeffhew]

Whoa Kevin, hold on a sec. I should have been more clear. I honestly was not even thinking of ALPA, other pilot unions, or for that matter the CWA or AFA. In retrospect, it was irresponsible for me not to make that clear. Let me say for the record, that my criticism, if you can call it that, was only regarding unions representing ground service employees. Particularly as it regards union attitude and behavior towards "unskilled" vs "skilled" labor. AMFA in particular is notorious for selling out it's members in favor of their skilled labor pool. Northwest, Alaska, and UAL are some of the most recent examples. The Railway Labor Act, as well as other class and craft issues have been a thorn in the side of airlines and unions alike, and are viewed as impediments to profit, share price, and executive bonuses. As such, they have worked in concert, mainly through the courts, to obfuscate these provisions to the detriment of thousands of experienced airline workers.The collusion, and "back room" deals that are a routine part of upper level negotiations (I've been in the room, Kevin) have served to displace tens of thousands of "in house" workers in favor of contract providers which, by and large, have no specific airline experience, employ foreign nationals (many non english speaking) at wages less than one third the rate that those "in house" employees make, and provide few if any benefits. This has had a direct and negative impact on customer satisfaction, intent to repurchase, non-weather reportable delays, equipment/aircraft damage, and flight safety. All of which drive up costs and hamper revenue streams, to say nothing of the downward pressure this puts on salaries of other employee groups, yours included. Interestingly, you and I were subjected to a federal, ten year background check, minimum. Many of these contract workers come from regions of the world where it is virtually impossible to find records of this length and substance. Even Interpol has limited ability in this area as they are hindered by the lack of reliable governmental infrastructure and record keeping practices of many third world nations from which these nationals originate. The best low cost carriers operate around .07 to .09 cents/ASM. Some legacy carriers are above .11c/ASM so I understand the dynamics. Certainly you'll agree that even among pilots, newer pilots are hired on pay scales that are substantially less lucrative than the pay scales senior pilots, with many years under their belt, enjoy. Have you ever been invloved in a merger and witnessed the ensuing war over merged seniority lists? Please understand, it is not the union membership but, rather the leadership with whom I take issue. And I KNOW that pilots have issues with their leadership as well.Again, for the record, NO ONE should EVER question that the uppermost concern on the mind of EVERY pilot, in my experience, is for the saftey of his/her flight, passengers, and crew. It is the industry which is trying to reduce pilots to the level of glorified bus drivers, and I firmly believe that were it not for the efforts of ALPA and its membership, the flying public would be far less safe today. ALPA is a strong union, I only wish we could all say the same about our respective unions.With Respect,Jeff

[Cessnaflyer 56]

So you are saying a merit based system imposed by the company is much more safe?

[Guest Jeffhew]

>the pilots may care about themselves, but they couldn't care>less about the passengers.>It's well known that passengers are considered pieces of>cargo, nothing more nothing less (in fact they're worse than>regular cargo as the profit margin is lower).>>To claim that the unions are there for the safety and comfort>of the passengers is downright laughable. They're there for>only two things: money and power (both economic and>political).>>It's the company who cares about the passengers, as without>happy passengers they have a PR disaster on their hands.>Unions abuse that fact by using disruption of service to>pressure airlines into giving them (and pilots) more money and>power to the detriment of the company itself, leaving airlines>(in this case) in severe financial trouble.>>That's what unions do, though of course their members will>deny it as they are the ones to reap the benefits of it...Oh man!I have NEVER seen a slowdown or a "disruption of service" for issues of MONEY. NOT EVER! Everyone always thinks it's about money. I will tell you that 98% of the issues are about duty time and saftey of flight concerns. Most people have no idea how much time flight attendants and pilots actually work. These folks work a substantial number of hours that aren't even paid, and spend days, sometimes weeks away from their families. Not to mention the personal financial cost for a pilot even think about the "left seat". If you took the average Flight attendent pay and factored in all the required, unpaid time, they make about $3.80 an hour. Pilots make more but still. And as far as GS employees, well in 2005, I was making less than in 1995. Substantially less. And that includes a 15% pay cut in '94. On top of that, during that time my benefit cost increased over 750%. To make things even worse, I had to work midnights while my premium day shift was given to someone who had been in this country less time than it took me to drive to work. And that's with twenty years seniority. If the members of unions are reaping some huge benefit, then I sure missed that boat! My only reward was I got to train my replacement. Try it sometime!If you think the lawyers and execs care about passengers, think again. They care about preventing lawsuits and that's it, end of story. The only people they care about are themselves and the shareholders. The people who care about the passengers are the ones that have been losing their jobs. Why? Because the big shots in their ivory towers want to dictate process and procedure without taking into account the realities of running an operation. They don't want to hear from us, the people actually doing the job, that something doesn't work the way they think it will. Many people, myself included, have directly refused to comply with certain procedures because they are UNSAFE!!! Is the guy loading the pit worth $20/hr to make sure that cargo door is secured properly? How about the guy doing a search for explosives on a plane, worth $20/hr? You bet your #### they are. These people may grumble and complain as everyone does about their jobs however, we NEVER intentionally take this out on our customers. I have never known any front line guy to not put our passengers first. They may experience some inconvenience during these times but, it's better than being dead. No, the reality is it's the carrier that sees passengers as cargo. And those of us who have the tamarity to think of our passengers first are replaced with yes men and automatons who don't have the experience or requisite knowledge to know any better. You would be truly shocked and amazed at the number of airline executives who have ZERO airline experience. Sorry man but, my criticism of unions and the industry overall are based on alot of first hand experience and involvement. You seem to imply that every union member is "on the take" and that we don't care about anyone but ourselves. The truth of the matter is if you don't have a passion for this industry, you don't last very long. If it wasn't for us, there would be alot less flying and alot more dead people.Don't believe everything you read in the papers.Respectfully, Jeff

[KevinAu 441]

Wow again. Where do I even begin?>the pilots may care about themselves, but they couldn't care>less about the passengers.The only thing that turns a ###### customer who just had to navigate the chaos and indignations of getting to a plane, into a pleasant person walking off the plane, is the crew. It is the crew who works with dispatch to get the release modified so that the last four customers that checked in did not have to be denied boarding for weight restriction. It is the crew who got called at 430am in the morning and accepted a reassignment by scheduling to work an earlier flight so that it could go on time. It is the crew who took all those people safely through thunderstorms and blizzards in an aluminum can to where they wanted to go. It is the crew who calls for EMS when somebody that just got off the plane experiences a medical problem and helps this person until the emergency personnel arrive. It is the deadheading crew who volunteered to give up their cabin seats and sit in the jumpseats so that a few more customers can be boarded.>It's well known that passengers are considered pieces of>cargo, nothing more nothing less (in fact they're worse than>regular cargo as the profit margin is lower).>Of course, you're right. It's the pilots and flight attendants that made that particular business decision. No Jeroen, that decision was made by the people in the same row of offices where the admen and lawyers reside that you hold in such high regard.>To claim that the unions are there for the safety and comfort>of the passengers is downright laughable. They're there for>only two things: money and power (both economic and>political).Nobody said the union is there for the safety and comfort of passengers. The union and all union's first and most basic priority is job protection of its members. But with assured job protection, there is the side benefit of a safer operation where the crews can make decisions about how to operate the flight without fear of management reprisals if the decision is not the most profitable. Only when job protection is achieved can a union fight for the next level of need, compensation. And only after adequate compensation is achieved will a union fight for the next level of Maslow's heirarchy, prestige and power. Which are only things that serve to reinforce the first two basic needs.As with all things in life, moderation is key to success. If a union achieves too much power over weak managment, then they will cause the downfall of the company such as at United and Comair (it's Comair, not ComAir, Jeroen). If a union is too weak, such as at Mercury (the one in the newspaper article), then the airline will suffer from safety problems caused by crews being forced to do things that are unsafe, unhappy employees that sabotage the operation at any opportunity, and high turnover of employees, causing inexperience to dominate the flightdecks.Only when the two sides of union and management are in balance will an airline run well. The company can be profitable because the cost of labor is not too high. And the labor will perform for the good of the company and stay at the company because they are able to achieve a satisfactory standard of living.>>It's the company who cares about the passengers, as without>happy passengers they have a PR disaster on their hands.Once again Jeroen, you see it for what it is. I mean, the airline managers really scored with customers and showed how much they cared by charging for peanuts and sodas, charging for pillows and blankets, having all those restrictions attached to the tickets, employing an inadequate number of gate agents, charging extra for bags, playing their slot trading games, and letting their planes full of people sit on the tarmac for eight hours.>Unions abuse that fact by using disruption of service to>pressure airlines into giving them (and pilots) more money and>power to the detriment of the company itself, leaving airlines>(in this case) in severe financial trouble.Since the last strike here in the US by pilots that I can remember, merely off the the top of my head, since the Comair strike, Expressjet, Wiscounsin, Southwest, Continental, Mesaba, ASA and even Comair again, have gone through new contracts. Did any one of those strike? The only one that even got close was Mesaba. Most of those actually signed new contracts that gave up pay in order to preserve some job protection.>>That's what unions do, though of course their members will>deny it as they are the ones to reap the benefits of it...The union that represented the pilot in that article was the Teamsters. Jimmy Hoffa is rolling in his grave, wherever it may be.

[Guest CRJ700FO]

Fly Midwest from BOS-MCI-SFO on their 717. It is the best service par none in the industry. Business class seats a plenty in their 717.