Payware Positions

[mgh 89]

> We arent in search of the best here.>For IGS we need people that will actually enjoy working for us>and not think about the money aspectSo you want unskilled people who are so stupid they won't notice that $64,790 to staff, $4000 to "costs-to-run", and $58,790, to the "beneficiary" totals $127,580, which exceeds the revenue of $100,000 by $27,580. What a cunning business plan!Somehow, I don't think I qualify on either count.

[n4gix 4,947]

Thanks for the chuckle! What a great way to start my day. Well, at least the number of positions has increased from four to five, and the "share distribution" seems more equitable, even if the math doesn't work.Well folks, I'm off to Oshkosh for the weekend. See everyone on Monday! ;)

[Guest IGS]

Oh geez... sorry about that. I didnt make the chart the president did. Anyhow $31210/2 will be going to admin. Sorry about that. And you dont have to get defensive. We set that CAP to 64.79% which is more than enough. We do want the best but the best of the poeple that ahve good attitudes unlink the ones that have posted so far on this thread. The people that we are currently in contact with through e-mail are much more pleasant than the likes of you people here. As far as the people on these forums go you guys should be ashamed at the level of stupidity that you seem to have. Only kids go around telling people they are going to be doomed and to quit now. If eveybody quit becouse someone else thought they should then we would be back in primitave times. There is no need for you to say anymore unless you have something constructive to say. Thanks for correcting us about the income.Again Sorry about those stupid charts.Brian

[Guest IGS]

hey you're welcome! for making your day :) and sorry about those wretched charts... :( deepest appologiesBrian

[mgh 89]

"you guys should be ashamed at the level of stupidity that you seem to have"We are stupid?Your first salary chart was wrong - but that's OK because it was a rough draft and was not meant to be used. If it wasn't meant to be used why did you post it?Your second chart shows expenditure exceeding your income by $27K - but that's OK because the President prepared it. I'm pleased to see you have a President too: that helps to explain why so much money is going to the "beneficiaries". You have any others?If you can't get elementary things like that correct, what chance have you of delivering a decent product?

[n4gix 4,947]

>hey you're welcome! for making your day :) and sorry about>those wretched charts... :( >>deepest appologiesBrian, trust me when I say this... There will come a time when you will mature sufficiently to recognize that you've made a serious tactical error with your gratuitous insults.At the ripe age of fifty-seven, and with over thirty productive, adult years of business experience, I'm long past the stage where I bruise easily... ;)At the very least, you and your "partner" have adjusted the proposed business model to a more realistic and equitable share distribution, even if the expected expenses are - to be kind - way too conservative.Realistically, your overhead costs will account for roughly 12% of the gross revenue. Also, keep in mind that few payware products that depend solely on e-commerce ever sell more than a few thousand units. While it is true that no one releases sales figures to the public, from personal experience as well as private contacts I'm quite well informed on such matters.I do wish you all the success in the world, but do try to indulge in a reality check once in awhile, and keep in mind that the very people you insult here are the ones who actually know what they're talking about...

[virtuali 4,421]

>Please remember though that those figures only represent what>you could be making if we produce a much sought after product>that people wish to add to their collection.400.000$ of income for an ADD-ON airplane for MSFS ????Sorry if I can't help but nodding my head, but I've been in the Flight Sim add-on business for the past 12 years, I've started with FS4, and those figures are really coming from another world. Yes, maybe, 5-6 years ago someone would be able to make good money from an add-on, but just because there wasn't much choice available comparing to what we have now.Today, we have hundreds of products, but the number of users is the same of 10 year ago, and their pockets haven't become deeper.The average add-on, nowadays, sells in the hundreds or low thousands. A *very* good one will sell some thousands, 4-5 at the maximum. The 12.000 copies you want to reach to get your projected income would make for a really exceptional one, and you need 2 years of developing time to do that, with a new FS release in between.And, your choice of percentages is not very fair. First : a programmer + modeler + panel developer + FDE programmer are totally able to do the entire product by themselves, and sell it as well, eventually. There are plenty of ecommerce websites that will carry the sale for them. So, they will feel they don't need you, if you are asking 60% for doing just marketing and support.For that service, 25% is the maximum you could ask. 60% to your company, when the product is 100% programmed by others, is too much.And, even between the team, the split is wrong: the programmers WILL have to get at least a double amount of what the graphic guys are getting. Sorry, but this is how professional game developement is done, for each GOOD C++ programmer, you can find at least 10 graphic modellers on the market. That's why programmers are more expensive.I'm talking, of course, of GOOD C++ programmer, not people who learned the language by force, because of the MS SDK...but there's no chance you would be able to do a Better-than-level-D-767 product without real programmers.regards,

[Guest airhead]

>>400.000$ of income for an ADD-ON airplane for MSFS ????>Don't know about you guys, but I honestly couldn't get past this figure... :(

[Guest IGS]

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[Guest IGS]

Bill no offense or anything but for your information, I truly am sorry about the charts. I myself never looked over them as we had actually made about 20 prior ones trying to get one to be somewhere around the right range. Unfortunatly it was a mistake that we didnt pick up on until you guys had already posted and the posts can no longer be edited. "Brian, trust me when I say this... There will come a time when you will mature sufficiently to recognize that you've made a serious tactical error with your gratuitous insults."That stuff about making your day was never an insult I meant it. You are afterall the one that said it made your day. As I said we arent boring people that just say eaither "yes" "no" and act like we have any emotion. Seriously I was glad we made you laugh. I dont care if you dont like us. I never asked for everyone to agree with us but many people hav shown interest in this venture because they want to be part af a team that they themselves can grow with."and keep in mind that the very people you insult here are the ones who actually know what they're talking about..." well we dont know anything about you as well as hopw you dont know anythign about us likewise so I dont knwo where I can see myself believeing that you know what your talking about... anybody can say that.I really do not see why this woul;dnt be a good idea to the rest of you. We already have enought money to easily support the company (hosting charges/startup fees)for at lease 3 years supposing we dont sell one model even which the cances of that are probably 1 in a million. We arent newbies to FS. We have both been playing FS for an excess of 10 years and have I myslef have been interested in aviation as long as I can remeber. I have been an active aviation spotter/photographer for 14 years. The president of this company has besically flown all over the world and has been also been interested in aviation for his entire life.There is not one reason that the people on this forum should be saying to stop now and we are "doomed" etc. The final decision to move on with this is our decision whether it has your support or not. If you go back and read your first posts all of them you will see why we are acting this way towards you guys. We never asked to be slammed or flamed by posting that we are interested in looking for modellers etc. Right from the get go you guys were contradicting and downing us. People visit forums to get feedback but not post and then get basically put downs. The entire thread has been a bunch of put downs where you get to discredit our decision to make this company.It is totally your choice if you wish to help us or not. So as I can see by what your saying... I know if we do make a successful product you wont be one buying I can tell you that now. So really if you dont have any constructive this to say dont say it. We came here looking for "interested" people... people that want the job. Not people that want to discredit the mere idea.You guys have to think that if companies like PMDG and Flight1 never had a dream to open up a company as they did you guys would never have and of the addons that you do. Think about how they started. If they came on here and were looking for people and you discredited them and put their idea down and never made a company, would you be happy? There has to be one time in all of your lives that somebody told you you couldnt do it and how did that make you feel??? And one here at least 5 people within well about 2 days have come on and said that. From Avsim there has not been one word of encouragemenet. Other saites have given us encouragement to make a good company as I would have done for them.Time will tell about this company but I can tell you we arent going to give up until we are in the red 3 years at least from now but by then we will have shown you a great product so sit back and watch our company grow whether you like it or not we are here to stay.As I can see you guys have already made your minds up about us so there is no more point about talking on Avsim. We have been contacted by people about these positions so there are people interested and they dont share your views so not everybody thinks this is a bad idea which is great because we will make a great payware product but in the meantime, you three can stop posting as your informative services are not needed anyhow. I'm sorry if you guys think this is a bad idea bu8t you guys dont really have the right to be saying this is a doomed project etc. I show respect to you by appologizing about the charts and I get thrown that it is an insult and I need to mature but i think it is the contrary that need to mature a bit and have some respect when they are saying stuff to us. Well anyhow... I'm off spotting. Hope you guys have a good day. Thanks again everybody that has contacted us priovatly and than you for taking the time to reply to us here on the forums you three especially bill you informed me about the income and i changed it. And thabnks for taking time out of your day to reply since you dont like us and have nothing better to doHave a great time everybody :)Brian

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"There is no need for you to say anymore unless you have something constructive to say."I am afraid you aren't in a position here to determine where conversation ends--I and the other forum moderators are. The comments here have been constructive--they serve to warn the less experienced among us to be careful about this venture.Without a doubt, people have called to task your business plan and the credibility of what you propose. But no one has called you stupid (at least up until the point of this reply). I don't give a hoot who you care to hire, but for those who take you seriously I offer this advice--I certainly wouldn't choose a boss who can't manage intense scrutiny well. It's your job to manage it better than your team. And you've failed miserably in my opinion which doesn't offer a great foundation for the other strengths you claim to offer your team. -John

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"Thanks again everybody that has contacted us priovatly and than you for taking the time to reply to us here on the forums you three especially bill you informed me about the income and i changed it. And thabnks for taking time out of your day to reply since you dont like us and have nothing better to do"Welcome to the forums Brian...Users don't open threads in a vacuum. If you are going to make a post that plugs your new venture on Avsim's dime, expect to see scrutiny of it. I looked for your post on other major sites, and haven't found it. I'd like to see links to some of the other replies you've received since you seem to single out users here at Avsim as being alone in their questioning of your business plan.I would not have questioned your intent for a moment had you been a long term participant to our community here--which has been around for years. The users who have responded to this thread help other users here, and if I had an opening for which they qualified, I would have no qualms about their attitudes. Almost every single one of them has shown a gift of being able to help users here through issues, as well as the gift of humor. I won't let you slam these people--they are the best of the best and have shown their merits for years. You have offered the forum nothing--I can't even find a repaint of yours in the file library which is where you say your talents will be directed.I hope you do prove us wrong--I root for the underdog all the time and would gladly accept egg on my face if it puts money in a deserving pocket. Regards,JohnEdit: I had been prepared to lock this thread, but I realize I asked a question for which you couldn't respond. I'd welcome links here to the threads opened on other sites where your project is welcomed. Perhaps all of us here are perceiving it the wrong way. Also, since you're a repainter, please post links to those projects since you had been unfairly accused of offering nothing to the project--file contributions are a great way for people to see you can "walk the talk".

[Guest iholrf]

I am sorry you took insult to our reaction to your post, but you did it to yourself. Try to understand, many of us here have been around the block once or twice already. While I am not as old as Bill ;), I have been in the workforce for 25 years, 6 were in the Air Force, and the rest have been running small business and doing contract work, starting with PMI, a COM recorder (Computer Output Microfiche) support company I re-built from the ground up as it was nearly bankrupt when I took over due to poor management. My clients have included such companies as BMO, Shell, MICR, NCR, Ford and IBM. If you think we were rough on you... you need to get out in the real world. Your proposal asked for professionals (you know: "highly experienced and talented"). You got your reply from professionals... we took exception to

[Guest iholrf]

> And thabnks for taking time out of your day to>reply since you dont like us and have nothing better to doWell, actually education is always worthy, so I would have to agrue that in fact it was "something better to do", not "nothing"... :)As for my feelings toward you, I have none... I don't know you, so how can I possibly like or dislike you? I did not like your proposal however, and well, that is something you can change. Take some time, become active in the community you want to sell too, and get some work out before you announce your grand plan to conquer the world. They call it "Credibility".Shad

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Just a word of warning, not directed at Brian or due to his posts but for forum members in general. If you are interested in joining these types of projects, under no circumstances should you give personal information until you can verify the identity of the person solicting your assistance. Red flags are attempts to ask for bank account information, SSN's, or other types of items commonly used in identity theft. Whether someone asks for your help via a thread like this, or via personal contact, make sure you know who you are dealing with. Also apply this to any job offer available online--the wire services reported a new type of phishing scam, where fake job ads were posted in publications with email addresses for submitting "resume and salary history".Sorry to hijack your thread Brian with mention of this, but if users are joining the site to offer such positions, it's timely to remind those who respond to use common sense.-John