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tf51d

Should anyone be flying at 86 years of age...

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I think that, as with many things in life, the decision to licence or not, comes down to simple mathematics:What is the occurence/probability, after a given age & regardless of current medical status: of a pilot experiencing sudden, disabling illness such as a CVA- Cerebral Vascular Accident (Stroke)? Simple medical stats presumably establish the rules. I would assume that the regulatory authorities and the insurance companies are somewhat in agreement.Alex Reid

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You are correct. This is why a good deal if not most pilot's have lost their medical by this age, precluding them from flying pic. A required medical and self assesment of health is usually pretty reliable-many start having problems in their 50's meeting these requirements.Same does not apply to car drivers which continue and cause many times the mayhem of small planes....a pet peave of mine. Since cars cause in the US 40,000 deaths or so a year and airplanes usually less than 500-why are not the same standards applied to car drivers as aircraft (let alone the phenomena now of cell phone distraction while driving)? If they had to pass a medical and "car review" (vs. flight review) many would not be driving. I know my mother in law would not-and shouldn't be...http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

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Geofa- I suppose the simple answer re car driver's age vs licensing is political. But there is growing controversy on this question too - with occasional articles in the press- pro & con re older drivers.Now in our mid seventies, my wife and I have positioned our home & locale so we can and do walk to almost everything. We spend probably no more than $10 per week on gas! And we enjoy a fabulous 3 mile seaside walkway!So if our driver's licences get lifted one day- so what! When you get down to it, cars really are a drag! Simming is more fun.Alex Reid PS- I also don't have a cell phone.:)

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Guest Bill_M

My response was not "histrionic". But how is blanket disqualification of a person from doing something he/she wants to do based solely upon age any different than from discriminating based solely upon gender or phenotype or ethnicity? Your very question exposes a bias against older people. While some - perhaps the majority - or octogenarians are not qualified to fly, that does not mean that someone over 80 should be categorically prohibited from flying. Look, I live in an area that is heavily hispanic. I have lived with discrimination most of my life. Around here I a the minority and have often not gotten jobs because I am an anglo. One time I got a job solely because I WAS an anglo - I was the company's token "white guy". Now, I wish you - for the record - to answer your own question. Do you or do you not believe that anyone 86 years of age should be allowed to fly? Do you believe that age - irrespective of any other physical or mental qualification - should be the sole factor determining one's fitness to operate a flying machine? If so, why so? If not, why ask the question in the first place?Age is only a detail. A detail to give when giving a description. Like ethnicity it really says little about the individual. I have a maxim that applies in this situation as much as in the millieu in which I first developed it. My maxim is: "Only a blind man can fail to notice the color of another man's skin. But only a fool makes value judgments based solely upon that observation." BTW I am using the word "fool" in the Biblical sense. Creator God defines a "fool" as a moral degenerate. Only a moral degenerate judges a person by the color of their skin - OR HAIR! If you believe that discriminating solely on the basis of age is different from - and therefor less objectionable than - discrimination based upon gender, phenotype or ethnicity, how do you justify that?The ball is in your court, my man.

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Bill- try buying simple life insurance after age 75. You probably cannot, because the actuaries/statisticians say you are likely to depart this world SOON- ie before you have paid sufficient premiums to ensure that, overall, THEY win! Remember that at about age 75, 50% of the kids you played with are already dead!The question that aviation authorities have to wrestle with is- When you go, will it be sudden and what are the odds you will be left seat in an airplane? So, YES, we old guys ARE discriminated against, but the RISKS of a catastrophe really do increase with each passing year. It's a question of risk/probability. Did you know that 50% of doctors graduated in the bottom half of their class?Alex Reid

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Bill...here's my take:* The question was rhetorical.* The answers expected would have been: Yes. No. Maybe with caveats.* Gender/Race are attributes that exist the moment we are born. Each of us is unique in our genetic/racial makeup. Gender and Race are static attributes, never changing. Age is common to all humans and is not static, but dynamic and like it or not the process of aging brings deteriorating capabilities. Being "Black" or "Jewish" has nothing to do with your capabilities. Being "Old" may or may not. Calling out those facts associated with ageing is not discrimination; it is a simple fact of lifeSo...while you may believe I suffer from "age bias", and that is your right to feel that way. I do know that the MAJORITY of folks at 86 do not have the required skills and health to be aviators, so my question still stands. Should anyone at 86 be flying? If you feel someone should qualify your answer with mitigating controls that will insure both the safety of the pilot, pacs, and the rest of the public. Please don't blithely throw out my legitimate question with hyperbole about race and discrimination because we're talking apples and oranges when you do. That does not make for good a discussion, but it sure does makes some feel like they scored a point or two.Cheers,bt

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Guest Bill_M

I resent your assumption that I am only trying to "make points". I find your insinuation insulting. There is nothing of hyperbole in comparing one form of descrimination based solely upon one aspect of a person to any other. The vast majority of women do not possess the physical strength needed to do many of the tasks of a firefighter. For that reason would you categorically exclude women from serving as firefighters? If they can meet the physical requirements why would it be acceptable to exclude them?You see, I believe (notice, I did not say "feel") that descriminating on the basis of age IS essentially the same as descriminating on the basis of phenotype, ethnicity or gender. Anyone who can pass the medical and the required check rides should be allowed to fly, period. Notice I said "allowed" not encouraged or whatever. Chuck Yeager is still going strong at 85. Would you have any problem flying with Chuck Yeager? I would not. On the other hand I do not expecially enjoy riding with my 84 year old father-in-law in an automobile. I know some people in their mid-sixties who are not healthy enough to fly. I see drivers every day who are in their 20s and are terrible drivers. It's not their age but their over-all intellectual and character makeup.I know how hard it is to get insurance now at 57. I have no illusions about down the road. I just had a pacemaker implanted 6 weeks ago. I cannot work until I secure a note from my doctor saying I am fit to work. But my over-all health is bettter than it has been in years.I will reiterate. While only a blind man can fail to see the color of a person's skin; only a fool (read "moral degenerate") makes value judgements based solely upon that - or any other - single observation. Discrimination is discrimination irrespective of the alleged basis of that discrimination. And I believe that your very question indicates bias and prejudice upon your part. And, yes, I do have the right to believe that. I might be wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but I sort of figure the 10 years I spent with stripes on my sleeves earned me the right to hold and express even unpopular opinions.

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Guest fullstoplanding

"Would you have any problem flying with Chuck Yeager?"No, especially if he'd let me fly the plane a little. :-)--Roger

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"No, especially if he'd let me fly the plane a little. :-)"------------------Roger- Why only "a little"?Alex Reid

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Guest fullstoplanding

Alex- Just a figure of speech. :-roll--Roger

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>You see, I believe (notice, I did not say "feel") that>descriminating on the basis of age IS essentially the same as>descriminating on the basis of phenotype, ethnicity or gender.> Anyone who can pass the medical and the required check rides>should be allowed to fly, period.So, Bill, do you think the fact that 15 and younger people cannot have a driving license or a PPL is an unfair discrimination? After all, that too is discriminating on the basis of age solely.And I'm sure there are a lot of 15 years old teens who could pass the medical and checkrides, and who also have more mental maturity of some 40s men I know...So, according to your reasoning, why preclude them the possibility to drive or fly solo?Marco


"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." [Abraham Lincoln]

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Not speaking for Bill-but considering 4 16 year olds plowed into my flying partners house in a car going 100 mph at 10:30 pm doing considerable damage to his house (no fatalities thankfully); and I haven't heard of any 86 year old pilot's doing the same in a plane-I'd vote for the precluding of 15 year olds (heck I raised 3 of them-and remember what they were like at 15). Of course this didn't even make the local news-but I bet a plane making this havoc would have made the national news-it took 9 months for my partner to get his house back...Considering a 86 year old pilot has to pass a medical and a flight review to be able to fly, and while 15 year old might be able to do both -I'd go with the 86 year old...but that is based on personal experience. :-)There are probably some deserving 15 year olds out there-but all they have to do is wait another year.A qualified 86 year old ought to be able to go for it while he/she still can-after all-they have already passed muster. Less of a hazard in the scheme of things than the women in her 30's next to me on the highway today reading a book while driving, or the many of cell phone users bobbing left and right in their lanes oblivious of anything but their phone call. Much more of a concern imho. The over 80's pilots I know are worthy of admiration-and still well fit to fly-and they would be the first to call it quits if they felt otherwise.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

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>Considering a 86 year old pilot has to pass a medical and a>flight review to be able to fly, and while 15 year old might>be able to do both -I'd go with the 86 year old...but that is>based on personal experience. :-)Hi Geofa,actually I agree with you, my point was only to demonstrate that a discrimination based solely on age is not always unfair. I too would feel much better flying with a fit 86 y.o. with 10000 flying hours than with a 18 y.o. that just got his PPL. But if at some point in the future the FAA decides an upper age limit, maybe based on medical and statistical evidences, I don't think it would be an unfair discrimination.Marco


"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." [Abraham Lincoln]

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