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Guest DreamFleet

Offset for DF 737-400

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Rescued from what? I don't need rescuing from attempts to impose US law in the UK. UK law does that for me.Statute law always overrides private law. No private agreement can require anyone to break statute law or take away rights given by statute law. Any attempt to do so is null and void.To revert to the original points of this discussion, UK statute law gives the right to decompile a program provided certain conditions are met. It also explicitly states that this right cannot be taken away by any agreement. Therefore, a program can be decompiled in the UK if the conditions are met.The question of applicable law is irrelevant if the purchaser is a consumer (ie doesn't acquire the program in the course of business). UK law states that the consumer can chose the applicable law - either the UK law or that of the country of the supplier - but the supplier has has to use the law of the country of the consumer. This rules out application of US (or any other) law to consumer contracts in the UK.

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Not if the actual transaction doesn't take place in the UK. No.


Ed Wilson

Mindstar Aviation
My Playland - I69

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But the applicable law is UK law for any UK consumer buying in the UK because UK law says it is. No private agreement can override thatAre you suggesting that if I buy software on a CD from a retailer in the UK then UK law doesn't apply to that transaction either?

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>But the applicable law is UK law for any UK consumer>buying in the UK because UK law says it is. No private>agreement can override that>>Are you suggesting that if I buy software on a CD from a>retailer in the UK then UK law doesn't apply to that>transaction either?How many addons have you purchased in a retail store?


Ed Wilson

Mindstar Aviation
My Playland - I69

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A nice attempt to avoid answering my question. However I'll answer your irrelevant question by saying all my purchases of add-ons were from from UK retailers and on CD. As of, course, was my original purchase of FS9. Will you now answer my question?

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>A nice attempt to avoid answering my question. >>However I'll answer your irrelevant question by saying>all my purchases of add-ons were from from UK retailers>and on CD. As of, course, was my original purchase of FS9. >>Will you now answer my question?There's no reason to answer your question, it doesn't apply to the specific issue at hand. A person wants to know offsets contained within an addon. If the addon was purchased via the internet with a download... it's purchase is generally (legally) viewed as having happened at the 'location' stated in the EULA. The question then becomes... is reverse engineering legal where the purchase was made... not whether or not it's legal in the UK itself.


Ed Wilson

Mindstar Aviation
My Playland - I69

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Guest JeanLuc_

Of course, you would be right assuming reverse engineering is illegal in the USA, and the software was online purchased in the USA, and USA laws applies. Nevertheless, I still think electronically delivered/sold goods are still bound to the consumer residence law.I remember this was a problem for some vendors sometime ago when trying to sell in France. Another example of laws: can you make a copy of the software even if the EULA says you can't? well, in France, it used to be lawfully stated that you CAN make a copy of any software, for archiving purposes. So you can legally take your FSX game, and make a copy of it (not sold the copy or lend the copy of course), while in the USA, even making a copy for your own put-in-the-safe-in-case-disk-breaks is illegal.Ed, you seem to have better understanding than me on the matters of law. Can you please help us all and show us some material that explains how reverse engineering is illegal in the USA?Thanks in advance!

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My question related to to the situation where the software was purchased in the UK from a UK retail outlet. I suspect the reason you are avoiding the it is because the answer is that UK law obviously applies.The purchase is not legally viewed as having happened at the location stated in the EULA because of the opportunity this gives to rip-off the consumers by selecting a location with no consumer protection law. If your argument is coirrect the EULA could claim the location is, to take a topical example, the Republic of Myanamar (Burma). Would you be happy with that? It is to avoid that sort of unscrupulous behavior that the UK (and the EU) has incorporated the Locarno Convention into their law. As I said in an earlier post, this gives the consumer the right to decide the location. TIn the UK there is also the Distance Selling Regulations that provide firther protection agains consumer rip-offs with similar regulation elsewher in the UK.JeanLuc points out that archive copies can be made in France as they can throughout the EU because these laws have been harmonised in these areas.Like JeanLuc, I would like to see some references to the relevant US laws to support your arguments.

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It's perfectly legal in the U.S. to make a backup copy of software you purchase. Whomever's told you otherwise is incorrect. That's been a federal (nationwide) law for as far back as I can remember.As for relevant laws... there are no national laws regarding this discussion. It is the EULA within the U.S. that sets down the legal grounds. The EULA declares the applicable legal jurisdiction and thus sets the groundwork.As for the part about Burma... there's a reason one should always read a contract before agreeing to it. I read them, always have.


Ed Wilson

Mindstar Aviation
My Playland - I69

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Bill, I tend to agree , especially as one party to this discussion simply repeats assertions without providing any supporting evidence and also avoids answering questions.Let me summarise my position:(1) Under UK statute law it is not a breach of copyright to decompile a program under certain conditions(2) UK statute law explicitly states that any term in a agreement purporting to take this right away is null and void(Source: Section 50B Copyright, Designs, and Patents Act 1988 as amended)There is, therefore, and unresticted right in the UK to decompile a program provided the conditions are met.(3) UK statute law protects consumers against unfair contract terms, especialy in contracts that have not been individualy negatiated. That is, they are presented by suppliers on a take-it-or-leave-it basis, like EULAs and that such terms are not binding on the consumer(5) Excluding or hindering the consumer's right to take legal action by requiring him to use foreign courts, is regarded as unfair and not binding on a consumer.(Source: SI 1999 No. 2083 The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999) Should the need arise, I would happily and legally decompile programs in the UK.As a parthian shot, how many add-on developers use information obtained by decompiling the Flight Simulator software product?

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Ok... here's how it would happen:You reverse engineer someone's software that's made in the U.S. Said company finds out and determines that you've violated the terms of the EULA. Said company would file a cease and desist letter. If you fail to comply with the cease and desist... said company would then proceed to take you to court in the U.S. See, UK law doesn't prevent that from happening. Nor can it. Said company could prove that you inflicted financial damage and thus win a judgement against you. The judgement would be difficult to persue in the UK itself (distance is always an issue)... but at that point any thoughts of travel into the U.S. would be a bad idea.Now... how has the UK law protected you again?As for your question, nope I've never reverse engineered anything in FS. Zip, zilch, nada.


Ed Wilson

Mindstar Aviation
My Playland - I69

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I doubt that a US court would issue an order in those circumstance because of lack of jurisdiction - the act complained of was done outside the US in a country where it was permitted by a person with no connection with the US. Even if the court did the order it wouldn't be enforceable by a UK court. Not because of distance, but because the act is permitted in the UKI note when you do attempt to answer a question you answer one that wasn't asked. Read my original question again.

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Guest jprintz

When you say "said company would then proceed to take you to court in the U.S.," it seems to me that you may be assuming the truth of the very proposition that's at issue here. (The jurisdiction question.) How exactly would that company establish U.S. jurisdiction? It could be just me, but that doesn't seem at all trivial. And more importantly, if that company could establish that jurisdiction, what substantive law would then apply? Is there some legal principle in international law that would allow a U.S. court to totally ignore the substantive law of the country where the sale actually occurred?Interesting topic!

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The first requirement to determine is location of the sale. An internet sale is generally considered to have happened at the location of the seller, not the purchaser. Why do I say this?? Because of taxes. If you purchase something via the internet from a U.S. company... there is no VAT due. If you purchase it from a company within the EU... there is VAT due.Now, I realize that there are places like Flight1 and SimMarket which end up being the point of sale for many addons... but the base premise remains the same.If for tax purposes the sale isn't subject to VAT... you can not claim the sale happened within the UK/EU. If the sale didn't happen there... the courts there have no jurisdiction.So... you tell me.... if you're not required to pay VAT, how can the sale have happened there to begin with?


Ed Wilson

Mindstar Aviation
My Playland - I69

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