aircraft design and copyright

[simbio 56]

I try to search to find some answer for legal and copyright material about aircraft panel and livery.I find only one topic but it dosen' t answer deep enough to my question, of course you will all advice me to ask to a lawyer, but maybe a lot's of people can have some suggestion.So here my question.I want to create a payware aircraft let's say a 733.If I create a 2D Panel from scratch without using any real photo, a virtual cockpit, and a 3D aircraft have i to ask the authorization from Boeing to sell it and what about if the company as close?For the livery package this for sure is a copyright stuff but it should clarify one day or another and the best is to let people create their one and not include on the aircraft.Dynamics, this is another aspect but is this also copyright.Tank's for any reply and hope to understand better the argument.Fabrizio P.This is the other topic:http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search

[simbio 56]

Sorry, I am certanly not clear with my question but I want to know if someone need to ask any permission or there is a violation on copyright on recrate an aircraft on is aspect panel, 3D VC Panel, 3D aircraft.I hope someone can give me info.Thank you

[ErnieAlston 33]

>I try to search to find some answer for legal and copyright>material about aircraft panel and livery.>I find only one topic but it dosen' t answer deep enough to my>question, of course you will all advice me to ask to a lawyer,>but maybe a lot's of people can have some suggestion.>So here my question.>I want to create a payware aircraft let's say a 733.>If I create a 2D Panel from scratch without using any real>photo, a virtual cockpit, and a 3D aircraft have i to ask the>authorization from Boeing to sell it and what about if the>company as close?>For the livery package this for sure is a copyright stuff but>it should clarify one day or another and the best is to let>people create their one and not include on the aircraft.>Dynamics, this is another aspect but is this also copyright.>Tank's for any reply and hope to understand better the>argument.>>Fabrizio P.You're asking for specific answers that's going to be hard to come by publicly. Getting the advice of a lawyer wouldn't be a bad idea, if you are really serious about producing a payware add-on.Regards.Ernie.

[Guest fbnweoghnwd]

I'm sure that the airlines and aircraft manufacturers could put an end to freeware addons (and probably most payware ones as well) overnight - if they really put their mind to it. After all, are we not using registered trademarks without permission? As well as portraying copyrighted designs and, in some cases, logos - without the guidelines and restrictions that would normally be required?Fortunately, this hasn't happened (yet)...probably due to the small nature of our hobby. But it's enough to make any designer loose a bit of sleep now and then.

[simbio 56]

That is really interesting, but make me think of one point which is very important.If we are illegal, How we can be protect for our creation, someone can use our creation and say that we are illegal too.Well of course we are talking about different way of stealing copyright material, We can say that we are the creator and the one who copy, is the illegal one, but what if this open a controversy.I always thought that we create game material that is not in a direct competition with real manufacturer, anyway this is as Ernie say, more a international lawyer question.I know I will be very unpopular to rise such question but i think in this hobby lot's of point are not been discuss and organize and put on a correct way.For example the developer should talk more together, one example was the database AIRAC and also how is organize the payware or freeware with FS.I think this is market is growing very fast and start to have a lot's of direction.

[WarpD 824]

>That is really interesting, but make me think of one point>which is very important.>If we are illegal, How we can be protect for our creation,>someone can use our creation and say that we are illegal too.>Well of course we are talking about different way of stealing>copyright material, We can say that we are the creator and the>one who copy, is the illegal one, but what if this open a>controversy.>I always thought that we create game material that is not in a>direct competition with real manufacturer, anyway this is as>Ernie say, more a international lawyer question.>I know I will be very unpopular to rise such question but i>think in this hobby lot's of point are not been discuss and>organize and put on a correct way.>For example the developer should talk more together, one>example was the database AIRAC and also how is organize the>payware or freeware with FS.>I think this is market is growing very fast and start to have>a lot's of direction.>So... whom are you?

[bcs112 0]

Let me start by saying that I'm not a lawyer (thank God).I believe it is indeed illegal to add liveries of aircraft to any payware package without the explicit consent from the people who hold the copyright to that paintwork (mostly the airlines themselves). Like was said before, most airlines don't mind too much but I do know a fellow payware designer was refused to put a "picture" of his aircraft in the colours of a real world airline on the box of his product. So there are effectively limits to what airlines will agree to, I think once you start using other peoples logo's and designs to promote your product, you are probably crossing the line.Possibly the best way to proceed would be to work like LVD has done by providing their product in a ficticuous livery and supplying paint work as "freeware" or something. Bj

[simbio 56]

Thank's fro your contribution.Did you think that selling only the 3D aircraft include with panrl guage don't do any violation of copyright?Thank youFabrizio

[WarpD 824]

>Thank's fro your contribution.>Did you think that selling only the 3D aircraft include with>panrl guage don't do any violation of copyright?>Thank you>Fabrizio>That's for a court to decide, not us. At this point only one plane manufacturer has refused to allow the FS world to release commercial addons based on their aircraft. One. Look and feel has been in the U.S court systems before... and the company suing lost that case. The judge effectively stated that it's like a speedometer in a car, if someone could own the rights to how a speedometer looked, then cars wouldn't have a "common" interface and thus make it more confusing.I'm curious as to why you're asking this... since exactly what you're asking has been done for years in FS.

[bcs112 0]

Hi,It would think that the 3D model for instance is not a problem except if the model is somehow patented or registered (otherwise no-one could make sweaters, shoes, chairs, etc... anymore). The use of the Airbus or Boeing name and logo on the fuselage is something else of course since those symbols and logo's are registered !No idea about the software and representation of data in the cockpit. I know that when I created some of my gauges (TCAS gauges) I asked for explicit permission from the manufacturer. Well the permission was in fact to use the company name. Bendix at one point refused to give permission so I had to remove any reference to that company, L3 where very happy to help and they even sent me their original soundbites for TCAS alerts ! So, it really differs from company to company. Bj

[simbio 56]

To answer to WarpD.I have craeted panels and graphic and some one use them for his tutorial, he decide to sell it, for me it was ok,I can only get advantage for his work but when we was exchange some thought about copyright of panel image, he said that we are illegal because we don't have any permission from the manufacturer so we can't pretend any copyright about our work.Of course I am really disappoint about such behave, i have seen a lot of badbehaviour in this market.I remember one that include a freeware product and sell it on a series package without permission, or on ebay people sell addon aircraft or scenary in CD.I think is quite expensive to protect our self from this behave (lawyer,court,time ecc.).If there also some insecurity about our right it will not help us.Sorry for my english and hope to rise some intresting point.Thank's Bj

[WarpD 824]

>To answer to WarpD.>I have craeted panels and graphic and some one use them for>his tutorial, he decide to sell it, for me it was ok,I can>only get advantage for his work but when we was exchange some>thought about copyright of panel image, he said that we are>illegal because we don't have any permission from the>manufacturer so we can't pretend any copyright about our>work.>Of course I am really disappoint about such behave, i have>seen a lot of bad>behaviour in this market.>I remember one that include a freeware product and sell it on>a series package without permission, or on ebay people sell>addon aircraft or scenary in CD.>I think is quite expensive to protect our self from this>behave (lawyer,court,time ecc.).>If there also some insecurity about our right it will not help>us.>Sorry for my english and hope to rise some intresting point.>Thank's Bj