FSDS or Gmax ?

[Guest]

Hi Chris, I forgot totally that I used to have to work in wireframe and in the orthogonal views.You know, I often think during these kind of threads that we dicuss the pros and cons of a given software, or computer hardware, based on technical logic, but in all cases the debaters have already decided on what investment to make. Either in money spent for payware, or time spent in the case of gmax. this always biases the discussion cuz we always seek to justify our investment decisions.a random thought..Bob Bernstein

[Guest]

It is always going to (almost always) be true that you will be able to work better with the program you know the best. Bruce

[arno 1]

Partialy true I guess. If everybody would do that then nobody would switch after they got used to a tool. I also used FSDS 1.6 before, but a while after Fs2002 was there I gave GMax a try and now I love it :).Arno

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Member Netherlands 2000 Scenery Team[link:home.wanadoo.nl/arno.gerretsen]Arno's FlightSim World for scenery design hints, tips and other tricks...

[Guest GerrishGray]

GentlemanWith the greatest of respect, I think we are getting a bit off beam here (as so often!). Marijo's original post centered around his preference for using SCASM in scenery design and he wondered what course he was going to have to take if he could no longer use SCASM (an incorrect impression that he had probably gained from other misinformed posts in these forums!!!).As regards the different GUI design tools available, all have their advantages and disadvantages, and - as has been said - we all have our personal preferences and loves as a result of familiarity with one particular tool or another. But it is the nature of a GUI tool that it will never be perfect and give full access to all the rich possibilities of the underlying scenery engine. The only easy way to achieve that is by hand coding with a tool such as SCASM or (if you are determined to be masochistic!) BGLC.gMax is a wonderful add-on to the world of FS that MS give us and, as a gaming-oriented derivative of 3DSMax is indeed based on a powerful industry-standard modelling tool. But as Arno and other enthusiasts well know, even gMax has its drawbacks at present because of the lack of full integration with BGL scenery programming. A number of important facilities available in the BGL graphics language are simply not available via the gMax - makemdl route unless one tinkers with the intermediate assembler code and recompiles with BGLC. Unfortunately, this is probably not easy for MS to address because gMax is not their product to tinker with - although who knows what the future may hold?FSDS, EOD and the VOD - Nova - NovaSim (as yet unreleased) series all have their relative advantages and adherents, but all have two big advantages over gMax as far as scenery design enthusiasts such as Marijo, myself and many others are concerned - (1) they are specifically designed for FS scenery modelling (well, FSDS majors on aircraft really, a bit like gMax, but is still pretty useful for scenery too), and (2) they use the familiar, and relatively easy to code, SCASM as their interface to BGL, not the cumbersome and old-fashioned BGLC / MASM assembler route.As far as Arno's reference to the VOD - Nova interface is concerned, I guess you should look a little more closely and understand the thinking and design philosophy behind these tools. Elsewhere you refer to the advantages of gMax for creating compound models - that has always been the striking advantage of Rafael Sanchez' approach in his VOD etc. series. Although perhaps a little unfamiliar to those accustomed to wire-frame / 3D-view CAD tools, his building block ~ parts list method makes it very easy to assemble complex compound objects from a collection of simple, but highly flexible, basic shapes and then map different textures to individual surfaces without any problem whatsoever. His tools also create models that are very easy to adjust and adapt, encourage a low-polygon-count approach, and incorporate a wide variety of specific FS features that are not always easily accessible from some of the other tools. It might also be as well to remember that Rafael is one of the pioneers and figureheads of our hobby and ranks alongside Manfred Moldenhauer and Pascal Meziat (and the rest of the Airport team) for his past and ongoing contributions - he has more experience and knowledge of how to go about FS scenery modelling than most of us have in our little fingers! (Of course, I have to declare a bit of bias here - Rafael is one of my personal FS heroes and, on top of that, he has granted me the privilege and honour of allowing me to get involved in his current NovaSim project!)But at the end of the day, none of us can hope to be the master of all aspects of the wonderfully complex world of MSFS, and we all have our personal preferences and specialities.And before Arno thinks I'm getting at him personally ... perish the thought :-) ... he is part of the team that has given us the wonderful Netherlands scenery and, despite his youth, is also rapidly gaining a deserved reputation as the most helpful guy in the scenery design world, always ready to help those with questions/problems, and with a growing fund of knowledge, tips and tricks. Good on yer, chum!CheersGerrish

[arno 1]

Hi Gerrish,Want to make some comments, and no I didn't take the last one personal :).First, maybe I understood the origional question different. I thought Marijo meant that he was getting tired of all the extra typing necesairy with the FP commands (as they produce more source) and was therefore looking for a tool that could help him to do it with a GUI.You are right about GMax, the exporter MakeMDL is not perfect for scenery design and as far as I know that exporter is the work of MS so I hope they will improve it in the next version.But I don't really see a difference. When I made an object in FSDS I still did some tweaking of the SCASM code to get what I wanted and with GMax it is the same. And if you are familiar with SCASM then the BGLC code is easy to understand, as they almost look the same (if you know the names of the commands of course).I might have sounded a bit negative about VOD, but I think almost everybody here started on that tool and I made some nice objects with it then :). I agree with you that his part list view is much better then the way the object are ordered in FSDS for example. But it is not easy to use (yes it is easy if you do all the mathematics etc on a piece of paper and just enter the parts afterwards, as I always do :))Then finally about the compound objects, I think you didn't understand what we meant here. I have seen no other tool where I can subtract one part from the other. See for example the picture below, the part with the stairs is lower then the surrounding and I first made the object without the stairs and then made the hole by subtracting the correct shape from that object. That are the kind of modeling features I meant.http://home.wanadoo.nl/arno.gerretsen/pics/tud_lib_01.jpgAnd before everybody gets it wrong, I am not trying to convince everybody to use GMax, everybody should just use what he likes most and have fun in this hobby :). Just trying to help make the differences clear.Arno

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Member Netherlands 2000 Scenery Team[link:home.wanadoo.nl/arno.gerretsen]Arno's FlightSim World for scenery design hints, tips and other tricks...

[Guest gorchi]

Hi Arno,If You get outside FS modeling world, then there aresome modelling tools that know adding/subtracting/... things. I personally love to do such things with Pro/ENGINEER, but I am sure also other CAD/CAM software like Catia, SolidWorks and even AutoCVAD with Solid modeler can do this. And if you can work in these software, then usually You can export in dxf and import in FSDS :)Okay, this was quite off the topic, I know. Marijo, regarding FSDS and GMAX we already talked about that on VATSIM; I still like FSDS more because of easyness while gmax is more powerful and I think it has more solid future.Regards to all,Goran BrumenFS Slovenija 2002 teamhttp://slovenia.avsim.net

[Guest]

Hi all>He is also rapidly gaining a deserved reputation as the most helpful guy in the scenery design world, always ready to help those with >questions/problems, and with a growing fund of knowledge, tips and tricks. Good on yer, chumI would just like to back this paragraph from Gerrish, He is reiable in his approach to helping others, myself includedRegardsDave

[Guest GerrishGray]

Hi ArnoI couldn't agree with you more about the powerful CAD tools that gMax offers such as the Boolean part removal etc. etc. and the very important ability to 'weld' intersecting shapes so that overlapping surfaces are removed entirely from the finished model (the importance of this is that it saves the BGL engine the tedious and time-consuming chore of working out which portions of two or more overlapping / hidden surfaces on intersecting parts are actually visible - each surface can simply be painted to the frame buffer directly, relying just on simple z-sorting and the painters algorithm). In these respects, gMax is way ahead of simpler tools like FSDS or VOD/Nova etc., and will always remain so because it comes from a major software development team with the resources to address this type of issue, not individual enthusiasts like Rafael and Louis. But its complex feature-set is also one of its drawbacks for those who only want to build quick simple models - there is always a trade-off in these things. Anyone can build straightforward hangars, houses, buildings, trees, masts, bridges etc. etc. with Nova or such-like with very little learning and effort needed at all (nor are pencils, paper, and mathematics necessarily involved), whereas the initial process of setting up gMax and getting to grips with its complex interface are a daunting prospect for many users. You are quite right that getting through this stage has tremendous potential rewards for those wanting to get to grips with complex modelling, but it's not everyone's bag ... and you can build some very detailed and complex models with FSDS or Nova too ... often without any hand calculations if that is not your personal approach to model design (although I certainly agree that a paper design sketch and maybe some dimension calculations is often the most expert approach to model design). For example, Boolean cut-outs can often be handled by the simple expedient of transparent regions in textures - with the added benefit of lower polygon counts for the finished model into the bargain (to compensate for the extra overhead that transpareny creates).Also, the minor shortcomings of gMax for FS scenery design are, I'm afraid, not all as easy for MS to deal with as simply improving the makemdl.exe translator. At the moment, gMax simply has no 'knowledge' of, or facilities for, features such as seasonal texturing, automatically rotating sprites, etc. Maybe in the future MS will be able to cooperate with their partners Discreet to add these things into the rich gMax feature-set, but they are not there yet.But now I'm wandering from the original topic too, so I think it's time for me to shut up!!!CheersGerrish

[Guest]

1) Now i know that FSDS can compare with Gmax and that abacus makes serious updates.2)> In choosing between FSDS2 and gMax, FSDS2 has to be the hands-down > winner if you are a SCASM enthusiast, because it generates SCASM codeThat`s it ! ! ! SCASM is a great tool, i hardly learned it and its freeware.Once again thank you for all your posts ! ! ! ! Greetings, Marijo

[arno 1]

>... and you can build some very detailed and complex models >with FSDS or Nova too ... often without any hand >calculations if that is not your personal approach to model >design (although I certainly agree that a paper design >sketch and maybe some dimension calculations is often the >most expert approach to model design).I guess I am too much of a perfectionist in such cases and I am not happy when it looks like every matches, but I want to calculate it and make sure those polygons fit etc :).>Also, the minor shortcomings of gMax for FS scenery design >are, I'm afraid, not all as easy for MS to deal with as >simply improving the makemdl.exe translator. At the moment, >gMax simply has no 'knowledge' of, or facilities for, >features such as seasonal texturing, automatically rotating >sprites, etc. Maybe in the future MS will be able to >cooperate with their partners Discreet to add these things >into the rich gMax feature-set, but they are not there yet. I think it should be possible. Look at how they did the animation or so now. You can get all sort of effects with prefixes for the material or part names. But they don't cover everything at this moment. Seasonal texturing is also interesting, mainly because it seems that the new FP commands don't support it anymore. The only way is to use the old Fs98 method of checking 6F8 yourself.But you are right that there will also be differences with a tool that has been custom made for FS.>But now I'm wandering from the original topic too, so I >think it's time for me to shut up!!! Yeah, I guess you are right here. I'll also (try to) shut up. This discussion is still interesting, but has nothing to do with the first question :).Arno

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Member Netherlands 2000 Scenery Team[link:home.wanadoo.nl/arno.gerretsen]Arno's FlightSim World for scenery design hints, tips and other tricks...

[Guest]

This post is becoming really interesting...and either me wants to get personal here.>Then finally about the compound objects, I think you didn't >understand what we meant here. I have seen no other tool >where I can subtract one part from the other. See for >example the picture below, the part with the stairs is lower >then the surrounding and I first made the object without the >stairs and then made the hole by subtracting the correct >shape from that object. That are the kind of modeling >features I meant. Well, sorry, but I do not agree with this....I don't know a word about how to use Gmax, as I found it my self quite hard to understand and use it, I have no doubts at all about the high quality of this program, made by a big company with all the required resources to make a top CAD program model, but with all my respects to Gmax.... I should say that you will be able to do such shape of building using FSDS...not sure of course since I don't use it either, but I personally feel confortable to reproduce it using Nova for example.....of course using some other tools and methods, but reaching the same goals.....I think that as everybody, we have to use and play with the tools we like and enjoy the most and that we feel confortable also to use, as far as the final goal is the same, that is, have fun and enjoy this great hobby, share our knowledge and so on, to end I could also say....who cares the way you take...if all roads drives you to Rome.BestRafael G. Sanchez

[Guest cwright]

Bob, that's very true in many cases. But not all. As I said, I had used FSDS for some time and liked the program very much. One of the really *great* features was the personal help from Louis Sinclair. However, when I tried Gmax it was like a duck taking to water! I worked through the basic tutorials and I simply can't remember thinking 'this is difficult' or 'I'd rather keep on using FSDS'. Instead I believe I quickly came to appreciate the power and elegance of the user interface, as well as the power of the tools. But everyone is different - just as well, as otherwise the world would be a very boring place! Best regards, Chris

[n4gix 4,947]

>But its complex feature-set is also one of>its drawbacks for those who only want to build quick simple>models - there is always a trade-off in these things. Anyone>can build straightforward hangars, houses, buildings, trees,>masts, bridges etc. etc. with Nova or such-like with very>little learning and effort needed at all (nor are pencils,>paper, and mathematics necessarily involved), whereas the>initial process of setting up gMax and getting to grips with>its complex interface are a daunting prospect for many users. I know that this is a very old thread, but I'm curious how long it would take to create an object such as this "elevated road section" using "paper, pencil and mathematics?"Using GMax, it took all of about twelve seconds to create, using a simple "shape" and a "line/path," with a "loft" applied... :)http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/62244.txthttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/62245.jpg

[Shaka 2]

I think you have made a good point Bill. GMAX is a powerful tool, that can create complicated objects much more easily than most people apreciate. It was difficult for some of us to get past that curve, but once we did, we saw that we could do things in "12 seconds" with GMAX that would take much longer using the older tools.I'm an old time FSDS user, but I play around with GMAX too, and I apreciate all it can do for me. I've got FSDS2 mastered, but I will be the first to recommend GMAX to new designers because:1. It's more powerful.2. It's free!It's easy for us to forget sometmes, that FSDS had it's own learning curve when we were starting out.- Martin

[n4gix 4,947]

>I think you have made a good point Bill. GMAX is a powerful>tool, that can create complicated objects much more easily>than most people apreciate. It was difficult for some of us>to get past that curve, but once we did, we saw that we could>do things in "12 seconds" with GMAX that would take much>longer using the older tools.>>I'm an old time FSDS user, but I play around with GMAX too,>and I apreciate all it can do for me. I've got FSDS2>mastered, but I will be the first to recommend GMAX to new>designers because:>>1. It's more powerful.>2. It's free!>>It's easy for us to forget sometmes, that FSDS had it's own>learning curve when we were starting out.Hi Martin!Having worked closely with the group doing the Citation X, I am quite aware of just how powerful FSDS2 can be in the hands of a skilled artisan. Bob Hayes is - in my opinion at least - one of the supreme masters of vertex-pulling in FSDS2. He's accomplished things using only FSDS2 that many (most?) can only dream of.I am also painfully aware that there are a lot of things that FSDS2 can do with great panache that quite simply cannot be done at all in GMax, such as "conditional displays..." Also, such things as a "shadow model," and "front model" are much easier to construct in FSDS2.For my next project I intend to build the complex parts in GMax and then export the parts to FSDS2 for final assembly, animation, etc. :)Bill+