FS9 seems to have an object display quirk

[Guest JonP01]

At least both of my copies on both of my machines. It first started when I noticed the default windsocks randomly disappearing at some airports. One minute a windsock would be there, the next minute it would have disappeared. The only way to make the windsock re-appear was to move the scenery density slider up a notch, or the autogen density slider up a notch (and windsocks aren't even autogen).Then yesterday I started trying to place objects using the existing version 8.0 bglc compiler. I made up a csv file that placed around 30 power pylons in a row, each spaced at around 1.0 nm intervals. This is where it gets wierd. When I fly over the pylons, only about half of them display (and it is not a visbility distance problem). Then, if I pause the sim and change the scenery or autogen density, all the pylons display at the correct visbility distance I specified in the csv file.I don't know whether it is the compiler, a bug in FS9 or an intentional feature of Fs9 to limit the number of objects displayed. I haven't tried placing the pylons with a macro yet. I wonder if that will make any difference. But the bglc compiler is pre-FS9, and I never noticed the problem in earlier versions. Presumably the bglc compiler is compiling the bgls in FS2002 format, not the new FS9 format. But then why do the default windsocks, for example, behave the same way as my power pylons?

[Guest GerrishGray]

HiI'm only guessing, but this could be a result of some new 'randomised' method for selecting which objects are actually displayed when ones scenery object and Autogen density settings are less than 100%. One solution worth trying might be to ensure that the objects are set to display even when the complexity setting is at its minimum value (Very Sparse) (I forget whether you can do this with BGLPLacer, but it's easy enough if you use a tool like Airport or FS Scenery Creator). But I'm not guaranteeing that even that will make any difference.Using an existing copy of BGLC will indeed create BGLs in the FS2002 format, but this is fully supported by FS2004 and there is no particular reason to think that such objects will behave any differently to ones from BGLs that have been compiled in the new RIFF format.CheersGerrish

[Guest JonP01]

Hi Gerrish,That's what I was suspecting, although I hoped it wouldn't be the case. When I did the test compilation I tried various different things, including "very sparse" and "normal" densities, different view distances and different scalings. I'm going to try other things today and I'll try compiling using scasm / airport as well.If indeed there is some sort of algorythm that culls objects (perhaps in the pursuit of performance), it's a worry, because it should be scenery designers who make these decisions - not the game engine. Especially so when the placement of landmarks is so critical to VFR navigation.I'm also going to try flying very slowly over the pylons - perhaps once a certain ground speed is reached, depending on height, the sim starts to cull objects. Maybe it won't happen in the Curtiss Jenny.

[Guest GerrishGray]

I guess you are most likely to see everything if you set the scenery object complexity slider to max (Extremely Dense) and perhaps reduce your target frame rate too. Try sitting still on the ground too, rather than overflying - it sometimes takes quite a while for the display to be fully populated with all visible objects.Good luckGerrish

[Guest JonP01]

>I guess you are most likely to see everything if you set the>scenery object complexity slider to max (Extremely Dense) and>perhaps reduce your target frame rate too. Try sitting still>on the ground too, rather than overflying - it sometimes takes>quite a while for the display to be fully populated with all>visible objects.>>Good luck>GerrishActually this is why I think this might be an outright bug in FS2004. This morning I flew over the pylons with the scenery slider set to "extremely dense". Again the second half of the pylons failed to appear. Then I changed the slider back two notches to "normal" and they all appeared again. There just seems to be something wrong with that. I could accept the fact that the new engine may restrict the total number of objects in a given scene based on overall user-specified scenery density rather than the specific density of individual objects as specified in the bgl source code. But I can't accept this when they don't appear even at the maximum possible density setting, only to then appear if the maximum setting is REDUCED - even all the way from "extremely dense" back to "very sparse". If I can't figure it out by the end of today I'm going to email MS about it. As far as I'm concerned, if I place an object in FS2004, then it should display at or above the density settings I specified in the source code. A user shouldn't have to continually keep going into the display menu and moving the sliders up or down to make missing objects appear. The missing objects even appear if one does something as simple as change the time from day to night, dawn to dusk, etc. To be honest I see this as a major show stopper.

[Guest christian]

What may be happening here is that the frame rate slider takes over. FS2004 may not be interested in your detail setting, but wants to match your maximum framerate setting at all cost. And that's why the objects get thrown away. Just a theory though.I completely agree that this is really not a great behaviour. After all I want to have control over what is rendered and what not.Cheers, Christian

[Guest JonP01]

>What may be happening here is that the frame rate slider>takes over. FS2004 may not be interested in your detail>setting, but wants to match your maximum framerate setting at>all cost. And that's why the objects get thrown away. Just a>theory though.>>I completely agree that this is really not a great behaviour.>After all I want to have control over what is rendered and>what not.>>Cheers, Christian>No, it's not the frame rate slider. I tried it at only 10, and it still wouldn't display the objects. I even sat the plane on the ground for 20 minutes like Gerrish suggested and went back to see if the scenery had updated. No joy.This afternoon I tried it with the scenery density at "very sparse" and the autogen slider at "sparse". I repeated the tests sufficent times with different settings and objects to prove that this is the culprit. Now all the objects appear. Since when does an autogen slider effect non-autogen objects? Why should a user be forced to use autogen to display non-autogen scenery?

[Guest gorchi]

Hi Jon,do You have any other custom scenery there? I had similar problem already in FS but it happened to be a problem related with scenery I made. After omitting some of objects, there was no more dissapearing of any object... Try to put those hundreds of windsocks on some distant airfield, maybe somewhere in Africa, where I am sure You do not have any addon scenery and see what's going on there.Best regards,Goran BrumenFS Slovenija 2002 teamhttp://slovenia.avsim.net

[Guest JonP01]

Hi Goran,I did have some other custom scenery nearby for testing purposes, but during one of my earlier tests I left it out just in case. I could try reducing the density of my objects (ie for testing I could space them out a bit more), but it shouldn't be necessary to compromise. The problem didn't exist in FS2002. It just seems wrong that playing with the autogen slider fixes a problem for non-autogen objects, afterall, we are not talking about autogen here. The autogen slider should be for autogen and nothing else. Anyway, I've emailed MS and pointed this thread out to them. I'd hate to spend hundreds of hours enhancing my scenery only to find out some objects may or may not display depending upon the whim of the sim. Personally I dislike autogen because the objects do not depict real-life scenarios, including vector autogen (bridges and power utilities being my principal gripe). So I'd rather use custom hand placed objects that are in the right places to start with and dispense with the autogen.

[Guest gorchi]

Jon!Thank You for Your report, I will pay attention to these details. I think MS did a litle bit screw up. Also I have noticed inconsistency of VTP layers, I helped a guy to erase airport skirting in Sweden and I have noticed it was on layer 7 instead of 4. Then guys from Greece are reporting moved airports of around 700m and so on... And probably we will find some more of such problems unfortunatelly :(Best regards,Goran BrumenFS Slovenija 2002 teamhttp://slovenia.avsim.net

[Guest knnygar]

I have a similar problem.Parts of Gmax scenery disappear from some angels.But when I switch to Slew-mode they re-appear :-hmmm I just discovered it yesterday so I have not had time to test it further.

[Guest JonP01]

>I have a similar problem.>Parts of Gmax scenery disappear from some angels.>But when I switch to Slew-mode they re-appear :-hmmm >>I just discovered it yesterday so I have not had time to test>it further.Yep, I've had the slew problem as well, but with default scenery. I first noticed it at YPEC aerodrome. Hit the slew and the windsock is there, go back to normal mode and it's gone. That was where the only answer I could find was to push the scenery density slider as high as it could go. Great for frame rates... :-lol

[Guest gorchi]

Knnygar,I don't know what is causing the same problem with my scenery. I have also noticed that in one Finnish airport (I think Vantala) and I persumed there must be something wrong with gmax objects used there. But now when it appeared in my scenery I hvae become alerted since I do my work in FSDS V2.24.But the most interesting may be that these problems appeared when I put five object in Library BGL. I have been playing around with these objects (okay, a macro of flag is still giving me problems but it is not not in library BGL) and after changing Area type from 5 to B or C, the problem seems to dissappear. Has anybody else got same problems? Gerrish, Arno?Best regards to all,Goran BrumenFS Slovenija 2002 teamhttp://slovenia.avsim.net

[Guest JonP01]

Hi again Goran,Your comment about FSDS interests me. I didn't realise this product could be used for placing scenery objects as well. I am wondering if it is worth my while buying a copy and learning how to use it, especially if there is a chance it could solve these problems. I have always used the utlities from the MS SDKs - those and my own stuff, but I'm almost willing to try anything to get around the problems I am having. Does your copy of FSDS allow you to place standard MS library objects, so long as you know the GUID? Have you tried and succeeded in placing standard FS9 library objects with it? As we know, there is no guarantee MS will patch this game or consider the issues we are reporting to be actual bugs. I'm thinking I'll have to make contingency plans accordingly.The bottom line is this. When I upload scenery, I want everyone to be able to enjoy it whether they have a Pentium 500 or the fastest machine out there. I don't want to have to tell users that they are going to need to muck around with their prefered settings and tweak 100 things because of idiosyncrasies within the sim itself. It's a bit like having to repair the garage door in order to make the dishwasher work.

[Guest gorchi]

Hi Jon!FSDS is capable of designing custom objects and thus also placing them into scenery at desired location. But I do export these objects as API and compile a scenery from API's. But making an API to place just any library object based on GUID is a simple matter, so placing it into scenery is easy. To compile all API's I use FSSC and as name of it suggests, this is FS scenery creator. Anyway, so far all my scenery is compatible with FS9. I had to make some minor updates to VTP stuff but that's all!If You want to try FSDS, then try downloading it directly from Abacus' site and as number enter demo. It will produce APIs ao You can try it. The link for downloading it is http://www.abacuspub.com/fsds2/fsdsmain.htmOtherwise I find sometimes MS tools good but impractical for use. This is also true for my job where we use Borland products instead of Microsofts.Best regards,Goran BrumenFS Slovenija 2002 teamhttp://slovenia.avsim.net