Ground2K4 - autogen streetsigns "peeking" through VTP

[Shaka 2]

I've been using Ground2K4 to modify the area around an airport, and I've run into a couple problems. I'm sure this isn't a fault with Ground2K, but may have to do with the way landclass interacts with VTP2 polys.Ok, here we go:-I didn't like the airport skirting around the airport, so I excluded it - no problem.- I noticed that all the autogen from the underlying landclass was showing through the airport apron - ok, makes sense.- I made a new airport skirting by laying down a VTP2 poly of grass using Ground2K4 - too easy.- The autogen is no longer showing through the apron, since my VTP2 poly is blocking it - wait a minute......All the autogen is gone except som street signs as you see in the picture.I'm pretty sure these streetsigns are a result of the underlying landclass, since I have no roads where you see the street signs, and I was sure to exclude all the roads etc. I have 2 ideas:- Maybe these signs are part of a different layer? has anyone noticed this? I have excluded layers 4-8 where the signs are, but they are still there of course.- I guess I could use a scasm-type exclude, but this seems "sloppy" and I would rather find a different way to do it.- Martinhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/44181.jpg

[arno 1]

Hi Martin,I can't remember which layer the VTP roads use, but I think it was a higher layer then you mentioned now. Have you tried to exlude them as well? That should remove those signs.

[Shaka 2]

>Hi Martin,>>I can't remember which layer the VTP roads use, but I think it>was a higher layer then you mentioned now. Have you tried to>exlude them as well? That should remove those signs.I believe roads are layer 6, which is excluded. But I don't think these sign are part of the road, since there was never a road there to begin with. I think they are part of the landclass-associated autogen. I have found another object which is also peeking through the VTP2 poly. In this case, some sort of building.- Martinhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/44198.jpg

[rhumbaflappy 113]

Hi Martin.Without the LWM file it will be hard to duplicate this. Why not attach it, and we'll try to see what is causing this... very strange.Dick

[Shaka 2]

>Hi Martin.>>Without the LWM file it will be hard to duplicate this. Why>not attach it, and we'll try to see what is causing this...>very strange.>>DickWell, that seemed like a good idea, until I realized that my LWM file was over 400k. So, I tried some more experimenting with a smaller test file, with similar results. Here's what I found out: The street signs seem to be isolated to a problem with my custom scnery that I designed for some reason. When I remove the scenery I created, the signs disappear, so there must be another reason not directly related to the LWM file. It is still strange that I did not have this problem until I removed the airport skirting though.The autogen-telephone-building-thing (see picture) at the end of the runway was not excluded by any of the layers 4-8, nor was any of the rest of the autogen. It remained in place when I lay a VTP2 poly down over the area. The rest of the autogen was excluded when I lay the VTP2 poly down.I tried different VTP2 poly landclass textures, since I thought it might be related to whether the landclass had autogen associated with it or not. This had no effect.For experimentation, I created a small LWM file that I have included here. It consists of a VTP2 poly, with exclusions of layers 4-8, and it shows the exact same results that I reported above. I have included that file here, and it's pretty simple to look at, if you have the time.My thinking is that the building still show because maybe it is part of a different layer than the rest of the VTP objects. The SDK might have this information, but I think I can find some time tonight to experiment a bit. I have no explanation for the telephone poles, but it has something to do with my custom scenery.- Martinhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/44300.jpg

[rhumbaflappy 113]

Hi Martin.I don't think this object is placed as a VTP line. It's not an XML placed autogen ( I've disabled mine ). In fact, you can turn the autogen off completely with the slider, and the shack still appears.It is a library object of some kind. I turned the Scenery complexity to sparse, and the object disappears.A good, old SCASM exclude should get rid of it.Anybody know why that object was placed there gets a virtual beer.:-beerchug Dick

[Shaka 2]

>A good, old SCASM exclude should get rid of it....just what I was afraid of. ;)>Anybody know why that object was placed there gets a virtual>beer.Well, In real life there's water there, but in FS this might be part of the approach beacon system, or something.Well, it's gone. Thanks, and now I'll figure out why the street signs are there.- Martin

[Shaka 2]

Ok, an update. The building was easy to remove, by using a scasm exclude. However, the street signs were more difficult. They can not be excluded by scasm excludes. More curious was the fact that my excludes that I was using to get rid of the default buildings seemed to affect the appearance of the street-stuff. Here's what I discovered:When I removed my scasm excludes, the autogen street signs disappeared. That's right, when I tried to exclude the control tower (for example) the street signs would magically appear on the runway. This doesn't make sense at all, but I swear it's the truth. I spent a lot of time removing on BGL file at a time to watch what would happen. Somehow, these two seemingly unrelated scenery-things were linked. I still don't understand this.Next, I noticed that the street signs actually formed a "road", except that you couldn't see the road itself. Basically, on either side of the road was a line of street signs. The invisible road extended far past the extent of my scenery project, and at one end the two lines of signs converged to a point. This made me think it was a problem with the VTPs somehow.So, back to square one. I checked my Ground2K file, and all the objects in the area seemed correct. Every road/river/poly that I made was showing correctly, except that I had these extra lines of street signs. I deleted a few VTP lines and things have returned to normal.So, I haven't really solved the problem, but maybe there are limits on the size of LWM files? Maybe it was the proximity of these lines to the airport or each other that was casuing the problem? The key thing is that I did not lay down roads at the spots where I was seeing these street signs, so there must be something else going on here.Also, I don't think it is a fault with Ground2K4 (an excellent program) at all, rather I believe it is a feature of VTP lines I was laying down. Anyway, I go on vacation for 10 days starting in 6 hours, so I'll try not to think about it so much. ;)I hope that maybe someday someone can shed some more light on my problem. Again, thanks for the help.- Martin

[Shaka 2]

...just one more thing.I was deleting some roads and stuff, and trying to get rid of the street signs, and I was having trouble with one particular line of street signs running wild through the middle of my airport. "On a hunch" I picked a suspicious road, and instead of deleting it i made it "end thinner" and that got rid of that particular line of street signs. So, maybe that's another clue?I hope somebody understands this besides me. I would post some pictures, but I'm supposed to be packing my bag for my holiday. Obviously I have confused my priorities...Maybe when I get back from my trip...- Martin

[arno 1]

This is a very interesting problem :). I wish I had some time to look at it (but I have to finish a piece of scenery first). There are certainly some things that we still need to learn about the VTP scenery :).

[arno 1]

EDIT: Oops, slow internet connection resulted in double post (I clicked twice, stupid me :D). So I removed this one.

[rhumbaflappy 113]

Hi Martin.You didn't try to add any VTP bridges did you?Dick

[Guest bjornhall]

Reading this gives me two thoughts, not sure if this clarifies anything ... 1. The building represents an NDB (I bet it is KK, right?). That is one of two lib objects I have seen so far representing NDB's. Just out of interest, has anyone been able to figure out which of the two is used when? 2. Maybe your exclude of the tower also excluded the (default) exclusion that was supposed to exclude the signs? I came across weird stuff like that when fixing the floating tarmac problem at SBLG (Rio de Janeiro) in fs2002; at one point, excluding the floating tarmacs also excluded the flattening under the terminal buildings and (this one is weird) excluded the airport skirting at night! That's not how those things normally work, but I have seen some very non-standard behavior in some areas away from Europe and North America ... Just my $0.02 ... Best,/Bj

[Shaka 2]

>2. Maybe your exclude of the tower also excluded the (default)>exclusion that was supposed to exclude the signs? I came...except that just the opposite was haoppening. The signs were only visible when the excludes were active. When I took away the excludes, the default buildings returned but the signs dissappeared. It's close to Halloween, so maybe my machine is just haunted. :)- Martin

[Guest bjornhall]

Read my post again Martin, I heard you the first time ... ;-) I was suggesting that your exclude might have excluded whatever MS did to exclude those signs. Take away your excludes, the default excludes re-appear, and the signs vanish. Put in your excludes, you exclude the default excludes, and the signs re-appear ... Not that default scenery would use SCASM excludes, obviously, but anyway ... Kind'a like the city textures (which were obviously absent in the default scenery) re-appeared under SBGL at night when I excluded those tarmac areas (and, accidentally, a bunch of other stuff whose refpoints where in the same location). Was just a thought ... :)Best,/Bj