Are we playing a Dangerous Game? Freeware

[Guest]

Peter, I agree wholeheartedly. The problem with most of the posts like that are glaring though, for example, if someone comes out and says a model sucks, flat out 'it sucks' Everyone seems to suddenly jump to its defense, and never bothers to find out why the person says that.Example:When I paint an aircraft (its been a while since I have), if I am told by anyone it sucks, i dont immediately jump to defense witht hings like 'do you hate freeware or something?!' or 'you have a lot of nerve to flagrently insult my work!' Rather, I would ask why they dont like it. Assuming they're cooperative, they can be some of the best feedback you'd get, but in so many cases its just that people never let it get that far.To even it out, however, if a person does say that, and doesn't bother to help the designer, then by all means the designer has every right to be mad.The reason I say this, and I too am probably treading on thin ice here, is that so many people seem to be tolerent of FS add-ons that could be better. Not to say everything out isn't as high quality as it could be, but people seem to think that because its freeware, they can't bother to say 'hey, you have potential, why not try harder and live up to it?' because they would probably get flamed.Lastly, I would like to adress the whole issue of 'great effort but...' in posts. Personally, I rarely post about freeware anything, mostly because I don't feel I should have to say that when I dont mean it. The thing is, if I don't like the work, it definitely does NOT mean that I don't want to help, in fact, I'd love to make it better, that way I can come out and say, 'great job! this is quite the aircraft!'Scott

[Guest]

>Freedom of speech? Please. It

[Guest Daniel Pimentel]

>I agree that _constructive criticism_ should be put forth >openly. However, if you reread D. Pimentel's posting, the >one which set off all the replies in defense of Mike Stone, >it should strike you as being a bit malicious in it's style >of criticism. There is nothing constructive here. >Pimentel's posting was written in the spirit of insult by >perhaps, someone who considered himself a "rival" designer. >People who appreciate Mike Stone's work have every right to >defend him from this kind of attack. Your point is taken, >but I think there are better examples of "polite postive >criticism" to defend than Pimentel's. EDIT: Was getitng to "harsh. :) Just wanna say, I don't take back my comment, I won't be a hypocrite.Sincerely,http://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3ccb70ab2428a1e1.jpgAA RULES!!! :)______________________________"Whenever you find yourself in the side of the majority it's time to pause and reflect" - Mark Twain

[Guest SKYGOD]

I just say everyone is entitled to there own opinion; in this case i totally agree with danny I've downloaded the L1011 and no way in hell does it resemble a wide body aircraft (and 90 percent of yall know this). Mike should still be happy to know i still fly his aircraft and i wish him the best of luck in his aircraft design. But people we have to stop this nonsense and get on with life. I mean come on were arguing over something thats free. Why dont we stop arguing on a bunch of ##### and let the downloads speak for themselves :) And if someone wants to flame me for what i said above you go right ahead but im not going to reduce myself to some ignorant level. :)

[Guest]

the real source of designers improvement plans? Perhaps it is for some but that makes for snails pace improvement. I can see so much more that merits improvement than any user in my work.Plus, I try to stretch what I know how to do in every new work. I do this not to please anyone but myself. The only reason I enjoy doing this at all is that its fun to continue being more capable. Its exciting to operate a tool differently or write some code and have it translate into beauty that I can fly a plane around. You may think I should have mastered better a kind of feature, and I may NEVER do that cuz its more fun for me to learn how to create something totally different, and doing my designs is more about what I enjoy than for what you think about it.Lets not exaggerate the importance of reviews or critique.Bob Bernstein

[Guest]

I'm by no means saying that most of a persons improvement is dependant on reviews or critique. What I am saying is that if people just keep their mouths shut, and people only hear the good things about their own creation, how are they ever going to know what needs to be changed. The fact is (and I think I may have phrased/explained wrong in my original post), that a person will gain skill by listening to criticism. They won't go from a newbie to POSKY after one plane, but it will help them to know what they've done wrong, what they've done right, and what they just left out. And, with all respect to everyone here, and all those talented modellers out there, I have something to say: if you do have people saying something 'sucks' or is 'crap', send them some form of private message and ask why, it can't hurt. They obviously have to have a reason, whatever it is, and you have to find out why. Don't try to be freinds or anything, just find out why...I wholeheartedly agree that we shouldn't exaggerate the importance of reviews or critique, but lets not underestimate it either...Scott

[Guest]

Peter,I agree with you.... some Freeware is poor some Freeware is good as is some Payware..... At the end of the day - if 'I' choose to offer something for FREE it is because 'I' want to make it available to everyone! If on the other hand 'I' want to charge for it - its largely 'my' business - because I consider 'my' time is so valuable (or I need the income!) and 'I' dont want to do it for free... therefore, 'I' should welcome criticism! Both are legitimate reasons and each person knows the feedback situation can be positive or negative - thats life!Maybe we should have a section in the forum called:'Feedback poll'Where users same can voice an opinion based upon certain criteria EG1. Ease of Installation2. Perceived Quality3. Frame Rate Hitsetc etc - (let the FS users define the list!!)each month a certain piece of FS software can be the focusThat way we could encourage Freeware/Payware users to submit their product for evaluation - agreeing to consider the responses in product fixes!We could start with FS2002 :-outta

[Guest]

Scott, when you write:<>it suggests that someone, either you, the developer, or someone is buying into the notion that freeware is satisfying a group goal. Some implicit goal that we all buy into?That's my point. I do freeware for fun. Heaven help anyone who does it for any other reason. If its fun for me to improve a plane in some fasion or another I'll do it without the help of a critic. If its not fun to do what the critic asks, I'd strongly advise against doing that change anyway. Why? cause it wouldn't be fun...and that's what its about.The only reason to behave differently is if a person is hoping to acheive standing in the minds of others....I suppose that's up to the person, but if so, no complaining is allowed cuz you can't get into that and expect no enemies. I wrote a different post on this subject, but those folks in my mind must feel like they are in the minor leagues training to be able to sell commercially.Bob B

[Guest]

TerryWe had such a poll here at Avsim which would have allowed freeware developers to have their files graded but the general feeling was that grading might make some feel inadequate and deter them from creating anything.Back to Bears cave then :-)Peter

[Guest]

Bob:For a start, when I say how are they ever going to know what needs to be changed I mostly refer to future things from the same author. Which brings me to it suggests that someone, either you, the developer, or someone is buying into the notion that freeware is satisfying a group goal. Some implicit goal that we all buy into? that. The fact is, if you don't intend for your aircraft or scenery or whatever to please the masses, then don't release it. The fact is that most authors of freeware are probably in it for some form of recognition, which means that if they don't improve on features by adding things, then they don't reach that goal. And if they aren't in it for recognition, and are truely selfless, creating it for others to enjoy, then they obviously should improve on it.I'm glad you do freeware for fun, but if thats why you're into it, then why do you release anything? Why release it if you get the satisfaction from just making it? Heaven needs to help a lot of designers because they do it for the recognition, and you don't get good recognition from bad reviews, which you get for not improving skill on models...Scott

[Guest Edam]

"I just say everyone is entitled to there own opinion;""But people we have to stop this nonsense and get on with life. I mean come on were arguing over something thats free. Why dont we stop arguing on a bunch of ##### and let the downloads speak for themselves."Those comments, and the person that said "if I don't like it, I just delete it," (Sorry, I don't remember who) pretty much sum it up.As for opinions, you all know what they are like, and everyone has one. I've purchased some utilities and aircraft based on the fact that the majority of people in threads *raved* about them. Personally, I wasn't happy with some of them after acquiring them. A matter of opinion. It's like pizza toppings. I don't have to go into detail on that one. You all know what I mean.Freeware: You download it, you try it, if you don't like it, you delete it. End of story. Sure, if you wish to tell the author, *respectfully* why you didn't, and *privately*, go right ahead. But posting this stuff publically, over something that was given without charge, and what the authors obviously worked very hard over, and released it just for your benefit, is ludicrous, especially when some of the complainers are incapable of contributing anything close to what they have received for free.How about giving credit where it is due and stop with the "gimme, gimme" attitudes of some of you people?

[Guest]

<I didn't for a long time, but then a guy asked for a volunteer to do his home airport for fs2000...I volunteered and he (Ron Alderfer before he gave up on MS) made a web page and was very complimentary, and that was fun...so it made me feel good.I have developed a small circle of people that have flown my scenery that has in some instances never gone public. AFter figureing out how to do custom textures in high definition, it was fun to provide that for the public...my friends told me that it enhanced their flying. For me, that was a lot of "give back", I always appreciated the time my teachers gave me when I was a rank beginner, Justin Tyme for one when he was designing for fs98, I used to ask him 2 questions a day, he always answered and helped me immensely, while publishing awesome scenery for his day.I haven't released anything for months, and I'm having as much fun as ever, but the forums like scenery design offer a nearly infinite challenge that includes contact with other designers. That's important to me. Its not about being alone.B

[Guest]

I agree with you Peter. Being a newbee developer, my opinion won't count for much. But, common sense says that in order for thing to "DEVELOPE" alot of critisim needs to be unemotionaly taken and assimilated in order to fix the problems and develope new features. If the developer puts their files on here to download, they are simiply implying "HERE, what do you think about it." Anybody with some common since knows avsim, is for all categories of simmers. However, they also know that the CRITICAL HARD-CORE simmers will gripe. It is the responsiblilty of the developer not to take these critisisms, opinions, etc. EMOTIONALLY. Too bad we can't have all develops have the emotional depth of your average lawyer. Then we would have some real break throughs in aircraft and panel development, theoretically that is.. lol

[Guest]

BobIts great to read what motivates you and reading between the lines it is apparent that your work and the satisfaction you get from it is what drives you.Others (no Im not referring to Mike :-) are motivated by recognition and ego massaging and the power they achieve by giving away their work. These forums are a reflection of any society and have their pecking orders too.Those are the ones who usually cannot accept anything but praise and play the Prima Donna if they dont achieve their adoration :-)(let me re add that I am not referring to Mike Stone as i dont know Mike but have known many freeware developers personally over a long period of time and pretty well know what makes them tick ;-)Peter

[Guest]

Bob,When your at the top in this field and treated like a God then maybe you will bend and enjoy the attention and that will become your fix :-)For now you are motivated by all the right things ;-)Peter