Video Card

[Guest simpilot]

Thanks Elrond!I think that the Ti4200 is what I am going to go with.Now I see that Gainward is releasing a "Golden Sample" version of the 128 meg variety first and vendors have it for $214 and $219 + shipping and from my understanding, it has the 4ns memory chips. Since I do not knwow whether I would reslly need 128 meg power, should I wait for the release of the 64 meg variety?Cheers!Richard

[Guest Max Cowgill]

Richard, I'm not trying to imply that a Ti 4200 will be a waste of your money, by all means go for it! I think the GF4 Ti 4200 along with the GF3 Ti 200 are the best values in video cards today, and if I had the money (and a system that would benefit from it) I'd get a GF4 Ti 4200 definitely. However, since your mobo supports a 1.4GHz tbird I don't see how you couldn't pick one up since they're going for $76 (266FSB) and $88 (200FSB) on pricewatch at the moment. By the time the Ti 4200 goes on sale, you could already have your 1.4GHz Tbird and have saved up another $100 or so to pick up that GF4 Ti 4200.Max Cowgill

[Guest Max Cowgill]

>Hi again Richard, >>Don't listen to that ninnie Max... :-lol >>Don't even consider buying a Ti200 today. Its a waste of >good money. If a video card is your choice of expenditures >as you said and the range of the Ti200 is your budget, >you'll be spending $100-$200 dollars. Theres absolutely no >sense in giving $150 of your hard earned dollars away when >$180 of your hard earned dollars buys you a product that is >leaps and bounds better in speed, implimentation and >improvements. Wheather FS on todays CPU's takes full >advantage of the difference or not (which it does at the >resolutions and aliasing level we all desire to run - even >on your hardware) has nothing to bear on spending your money >on the best hardware you can buy for the smallest amount of >difference in cash. >>So there Max. :-) I'd highly hope you don't recommend >inferior hardware to people when the price differences are >so low and the quality difference is so high. Come now Elrond, If you're going to quote the price of the GF4 Ti 4200 at it's lowest street price of $179 you could at least make it an apples-to-apples comparison and quote the lowest street price of the GF3 Ti 200 which is $103. Last time I checked that wasn't a $50 difference... ;) As far as the GF4 Ti 4200 being "leaps and bounds" ahead of the GF3, I beg to differ. While the GF4 is indeed a nice improvement over the GF3, it is by no means leaps and bounds ahead of it in the image quality or performance arenas. Remember, all Richard is using the card for is MSFS. If he were playing Quake III or 3dMark all day then he might want a GF4 but it's overkill for FS. He'll be limited by his CPU/memory anyway so it's not like he'll get any more fps with a GF4 than he will with a GF3. I do agree that the GF4 is a better investment for the future but buying the best hardware today does not guarantee good performance in the future. The next-gen GPUs will be leaps and bounds ahead of today's GPUs (straight from the horse's mouth), let alone the next-gen and the next-gen after that.Max Cowgill

[Guest simpilot]

Wow, that kinda makes sense.So, get the Ti200 and a 1.4 TBird?Cheers!Richard

[Guest Max Cowgill]

>Wow, that kinda makes sense. >So, get the Ti200 and a 1.4 TBird? That would be my advice, Richard, but in the end it's your money and your "buyer's conscience" you have to live with. Max Cowgill

[Guest]

Hiya Max,I thought that'd get your Goat... :-)So you don't think it was an Apples to Apples comparison? Well I'm not sure if you are a hardware vendor or what you do for a living, but if not you can use pricewatch. So lets compare true apples to true apples:A card that is the closest to the recommended Ti4200 I've stated above (Gainward's Ultra 650/XP) is the MSI G3Ti200 PRO-VTG. It is a 128MB version of the Ti200 just like the Ti4200, it includes full video in and out just like the Ti4200 and it runs at pricewatch for $155 (search on G3Ti200 PRO-VTG to verify for yourself), not $103. The Gainward Ti4200 at pricewatch is now listed for $209. Lets remember that the Gainward is at PreSale pricing right now: it can't be actually shipped for a couple days. The Ti200 has been available for months and months. The Gainward Ti4200 will indeed be in the $180 range within weeks - just like every other new hardware is priced normally once its actually in the channel soon after release.Now thats an Apples to Apples comparison, but of course the MSI is a cheaper-if-reliable board (a Toyota lets say) than the highly respected Gainward's (a BMW lets say) so its really not (and I'd clasify the VisionTek's as Geo Metro's :-)). If you want to compare lowball to lowball, the VisionTek or MSI version of the Ti4200 should be chosen - they won't have VIVO and they are "lesser" brands (but still quality of course).As far as you not seeing leaps and bounds of difference between the GF3 Ti200 and the GF4 Ti4200, I think you've missed some things. I have in my house right now a Ti4400 and a Ti500 (the highest end GF3 you can get of course). There is a stunning and dramatic difference in AA performance between the two, let alone DVD, dual-display, etc. I have to completely disagree with you on the benefits of a great video card when it comes to sims: Anti-Aliasing was *made* for sims - of all types (racing, flying, etc). The GF4, in my opinion, was custom made more for the sim community than the FPS community, its benefits are exactly what *we* need compared to any other genre.Indeed, because of FS's reliance on CPU bandwidth, the GF3 or GF4 won't give a bit of difference in framerate at 1024x768. I can whole heartedly tell you that is not the case when you run at 1600x1200x32 at 4X(S) AA. In flight simulator, there is no better resolution and AA depth - and its absolutely stunning on the GF4 platform. The GF3 by comparison is a pig (speaking relatively of course). As for bandwidth at these levels, indeed a mid-range processor will get a great benefit at these resolutions and AA depths - FS like any other game becomes more evenly GPU bound.Hope that helps explain and take care my friend,http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/elrondlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[Guest]

One Issue that (unless I read all the posts to fast) no one brought up is the fact the Ti4200 had Dual Head capability and the Geforce 3 series does not. So if you plan to have a dual monitor rig in the future it is easier with a dual head card than adding a second (PCI) video card. I have been struggling with using a PCI video card in my system (Asus A7V133 with 1.4GHz TB) for quite some time and just bought a Ti4400 card and it is so nice to be rid of the hassles that I had. Just my 2 cents worth.....Scott

[Guest]

Indeed Scott. There are many improvements on the GF4 compared to the GF3, built-in standard dual-head just one of them.Take care, http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/elrondlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[Guest Max Cowgill]

Elrond, as far as it being an apples-to-apples comparison, if you want to get technical it never will be because they're different GPUs ;) I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the GF4 then. I don't think the GF4 is a bad card, or that it's overpriced and I've already stated that the GF4 Ti 4200 is one of the best values in video cards today (along with the GF3 Ti 200) so we're not in disagreement there. As for your example of running 1600x1200x32 w/4x FSAA, it takes A LOT more than just GPU power to run at that res... Seriously, who runs at that res with details turned all the way up? Slideshow, anybody? I thought we were talking about Richard's situation in which case he sure as heck won't be running at those settings with a 950MHz tbird... Anyway, not saying it's not possible (I know it is, you just need a monster rig to pull it off) just that it's not optimal. Max Cowgill

[Guest]

I hate to say this Max, but:"As for your example of running 1600x1200x32 w/4x FSAA, it takes A LOT more than just GPU power to run at that res... Seriously, who runs at that res with details turned all the way up? Slideshow, anybody?"Its clear from that statement that you don't know what your talking about in this instance. You evidently don't have any experience on testing this or you wouldn't say such things. 1600x1200x32 at 4XS AA on a GF4 with anything around 1Ghz or better is extremely doable. I wouldn't recommend someone run FS any other way (maybe a tad lower AA, Quincunx for instance on the lowest end). FS was *made* for high resoltuions - theres no point in running FS at lower resolutions because its way too CPU bound for it to make a whit of difference. Adding a great video card is the *only* way to *keep* framerates stable at high resolutions and AA depths, regardless of underlying CPU platform. Hense the discussion in another thread on the highest end CPU for FS.I'd suggest you take some time out and run down to your local mom+pop shop and ask them if you can run some benchmarks with FS on a few of their systems. At my shop I routinely let enthusiasts (that I trust) do exactly that, so I'm sure you'll find one in your area that will do the same.Take care,http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/elrondlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[Guest Max Cowgill]

Elrond, I do indeed know what I am talking about when it comes to the GF4, I was specifically referring to Richard's situation if he were to attempt running those settings, and others with similar rigs. Perhaps I should've clarified a bit more in my previous post. Anyway, I've got to go to work now so I can't discuss this any further at the moment but I'll probably end up responding to this thread again when I get back from work.Max Cowgill

[Guest]

Hi Max,This thread has become a bit too contentious by accident, I believe, so I'll back out and let things be. I may have mis-stated a few remarks about your experience/know-how (initially as a friendly rub) and that has caused some low-level friction. Know that this was not intended. Of course we are both adults so it has remained fully civil, however there is no need for it be contentious either, so let me apologize if you felt that in any way.Indeed, we'll simply agree to disagree on this issue and that should be the end of it. I'm sure the readers can surmise their own opinion on hardware to choose from our banter now, hopefully better than they might have before, so it has served its purpose.Thanks for the chat and have a good night at work.Take care,http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/elrondlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[Guest simpilot]

Elrond,So you think that if I hold out for a couple of weeks that I will be able to get the Gainward 128 meg card for $180 US?Cheers!Richard

[Guest]

Hi Richard,Yes, I expect them to be in the $180 range within weeks after they begin shipping. Only rarely do products stay at their presale price once the channel is full of them - but it does happen. Usually this only occurs on special types of items (such as some of the millinium special motherboards in black that were released in 2000, etc). I don't expect the 650/XP to fall in that category however - specially when VisionTek, MSI, ASUS and all the others will have competing 4200's out as well.Best of luck,http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/elrondlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[Guest Max Cowgill]

Don't worry about it Elrond, I took no offense from your remarks. No need to pick up where I left off, except to say this: the GF4 is indeed capable of everything you said it was, but if you don't have a fast CPU a GPU of this magnitude isn't really necessary since the GPU will be constantly waiting on data from the CPU. Anyway, I agree with you about the GF4 being a great GPU, and the Ti 4200 being a great value (if not the best). regards,Max Cowgill