Two active runways - strange behaviour

[Guest]

Hi all,This behaviour is occurring at Congonhas (Brazilian airport).This airport has 2 parallel runways: 17R/35L (default active runway) and 17L/35R. The runway 17R/35L is bigger than runway 17L/35R and the 17L end is the unique end equipped with ILS.I would like to have the 2 runways in use: 17R/35L for landings and 17R/35L for departures, so I opened AFCAD (version 1.2.2), selected the Congonhas airport and do the following:* Double-click on runway 17R/35L* Check the 'Closed for Takeoff' checkboxes for both ends of this runway* Double-click on runway 17L/35R* Check the 'Closed for Landing' checkboxes for both ends of this runway* Save and run FS2K2Ok, so what I saw?I have aircrafts landing at 17R (ok, this is right) but I have aircrafts departing at 35R :-hmmm. How it is possible (landings at opposite direction than departures?)I appreciate your comments and suggestions.Arlei

[KevinAu 441]

Did you change the wind direction? If the wind was changed, AI aircraft assigned one runway before the change will continue for that runway while AI aircraft which activate after the wind change will be assigned the new runway.

[Guest]

Hi Kevin,Thank you for your reply.No, I do not change the wind direction. I just started the FS2K2, choose Congonhas from airport list and could note this behaviour.I have to mention that my FS2K2 runs without any weather (winds at 0 kts, maximum visibility, clear sky etc.).It is driving me nuts!!!

[wsieffert 0]

Open your AFCAD file again and make both runways the same length. What ILS facilities do each ends of both runways have? If the only runway with ILS is 17L then you will probably only overcome this problem by adding a fake ILS to 35L. The fs2002 software will accept a non-ILS runway if the winds are above approx. 10kts in the appropiate direction otherwise it will use an ILS end first.

[Guest]

Hi friend,Thank you for your direction on this.Take a look at Congonhas airport AFCAD screenshot below.As you can see, only runway 17R has ILS.If I understood, I have to add a fake ILS to runway 17L, as the active default runway is 17R (w/o wind).Is this correct? What will happen when the wind is from the north?Thank you again.Arlei

[Guest]

Arlei, a totally different approach to your problem is to download the newest Version of AFCAD (1.3 I think). There you can close runways for departure AND for arrivals. This means no longer the longest runway is used for landings!With this feature it is possible to design a shorter runway for landings and a longer one for take-offs.I tried it with one airport and it works nicely!BTW, I remember when I flew out of Congonhas once on a TAM F100. Cool city departure. We flew over the Formula 1 circuit where I could see the training for the coming F1 Grand Prix. :-)Cheers!Frank

[tgibson 11]

Aircraft are landing on 17R because that's the end with the ILS. You would need to add a fake ILS to the 35L end, and then they would use 35L instead (if you want both runways to be wind sensitive). You don't need to add a fake ILS to runway 17L.If instead you want the AI aircraft to most always land and takeoff from 17R/17L then create a fake ILS for runway 17L. They will use 17R/L until the adverse wind gets over 10 kts or so.Second, always run FS with 1 kt of wind in some direction, which will help avoid these things as well.Hope this helps,-- Tom GibsonCalifornia Classic Propliners: http://www.calclassic.com/Cal Classic Alco Page: http://www.calclassic.com/alco/Freeflight Design Shop: http://www.freeflightdesign.com/ San Diego Model RR Museum: http://www.sdmodelrailroadm.com/Drop by! ___x_x_(")_x_x___

[Guest]

Tom,Thank you for your reply.There is no problem on the fact the aircrafts are landing on 17R. I understood (this is the only end with ILS).The question that remains is: Why aircrafts are departing on 35R? In FS2K2, in this airport, without winds, the aircrafts always land and depart using rwy 17R. If I closed the 17R for departures, I think they must depart on 17L, not 35R :-hmmm .I would like to get answers to the following questions (So I can understant this thing):1 - If I have no winds, 2 parallel runways (17R/35L and 17L/35R) and only 1 end (17R) with ILS, all aircrafts will land on 17R?2 - If I have 10 Kts from the north, the aircrafts still land on 17R because this is the only end with ILS (on other words, this runway is not wind sensitive)?3 - If I add a ILS to the 35L, this runway will be wind sensitive (the landing direction will depends on the wind direction)?4 - If I have only 1 runway opened for takeoff (17L/35R) and no wind, what criteria the FS uses to designate a runway end for my departure?5 - Suppose I have only 1 runway opened for takeoff (17L/35R) and the 17L end has ILS. This fact (ILS on 17L) affect the decision criteria when designating the end for my departure (the 17L will be always used, does not matter the wind direction)?Sorry for the questions, but I think it is necessary to a better understanding.Thanks!!!Arlei

[tgibson 11]

>The question that remains is: Why aircrafts are departing on >35R? In FS2K2, in this airport, without winds, the aircrafts >always land and depart using rwy 17R. If I closed the 17R >for departures, I think they must depart on 17L, not 35R Because you've changed the AFD file and now it departs on 35R. Everytime you change the AFCAD file you risk changing what the 0 wind runway is. I have never figured out what actually does the changing. Thus my suggestion that you should never run FS with 0 wind.>1 - If I have no winds, 2 parallel runways (17R/35L and >17L/35R) and only 1 end (17R) with ILS, all aircrafts will >land on 17R? This depends on what runway ends are selected as Closed for Landing or Closed for Takeoff. If none of those are set on any runway end, then FS will land on one end of the longest runway. If that runway only has an ILS on one end, FS will use the ILS end until the adverse wind gets over 10 kts or so. Then it will switch ends. If there is no ILS on either end or an ILS on both ends, then FS will switch ends whenever the wind changes direction (even with 1 kt wind).>2 - If I have 10 Kts from the north, the aircrafts still >land on 17R because this is the only end with ILS (on other >words, this runway is not wind sensitive)? Below 10 kts it's not wind sensitive. Above 10 kts FS will switch ends.>3 - If I add a ILS to the 35L, this runway will be wind >sensitive (the landing direction will depends on the wind >direction)? Yes, even with 1 kt winds.>4 - If I have only 1 runway opened for takeoff (17L/35R) and >no wind, what criteria the FS uses to designate a runway end >for my departure? Heaven only knows - this is a mystery.>5 - Suppose I have only 1 runway opened for takeoff >(17L/35R) and the 17L end has ILS. This fact (ILS on 17L) >affect the decision criteria when designating the end for my >departure (the 17L will be always used, does not matter the >wind direction)? True up to about 10 kts, above that FS will switch ends.Hope this helps,-- Tom GibsonCalifornia Classic Propliners: http://www.calclassic.com/Cal Classic Alco Page: http://www.calclassic.com/alco/Freeflight Design Shop: http://www.freeflightdesign.com/ San Diego Model RR Museum: http://www.sdmodelrailroadm.com/Drop by! ___x_x_(")_x_x___

[Guest Stamatis]

>4 - If I have only 1 runway opened for takeoff (17L/35R) and >no wind, what criteria the FS uses to designate a runway end >for my departure? Heaven only knows - this is a mysteryI think the first runway in the dropdown list is chosen, but I am not 100% sure.[i>5 - Suppose I have only 1 runway opened for takeoff >(17L/35R) and the 17L end has ILS. This fact (ILS on 17L) >affect the decision criteria when designating the end for my >departure (the 17L will be always used, does not matter the >wind direction)? True up to about 10 kts, above that FS will switch ends.[/i]Let me get this straighten out please, the existence of an ILS will also influence the choice for the takeoff runway? I thought the ILS only influenced the choice for the landing runway.Stamatis

[tgibson 11]

Typically when FS switches ends of a single runway, it does so for both landing AND takeoff - otherwise the crashes in the middle of the runway between landing and departing aircraft could get ugly!! :)No, it stays on the ILS end of the runway for both landing and departing aircraft until the adverse wind is over about 10 kts, and then switches all traffic to the other end. I routinely have my wind set at 280 so I land at SFO using Rwy 28 R/L, but when I land or depart from nearby SAC (which only has an ILS on the Rwy 2 end of runway 2/20) I am always told to use runway 2.Hope this helps,-- Tom GibsonCalifornia Classic Propliners: http://www.calclassic.com/Cal Classic Alco Page: http://www.calclassic.com/alco/Freeflight Design Shop: http://www.freeflightdesign.com/ San Diego Model RR Museum: http://www.sdmodelrailroadm.com/Drop by! ___x_x_(")_x_x___

[Guest Stamatis]

"Typically when FS switches ends of a single runway, it does so for both landing AND takeoff - otherwise the crashes in the middle of the runway between landing and departing aircraft could get ugly!!"Yes I know :-), but the question to which you replied was not for a single runway operation, it was one runway completely closed for landings and the other runway completely closed for takeoffs.Thus, thankfully, your above scenario could not occur.So I guess my question is still unanswered: Will FS prefer using the ILS end of a runway over the opposite non-ILS end, even if that runway is only for takeoffs?( I sadly suspect that the answer wll again be "yes" :-( )Stamatis

[Guest]

"Will FS prefer using the ILS end of a runway over the opposite non-ILS end, even if that runway is only for takeoffs?"Stamatis,the answer is indeed yes and this is the reason why:in the default FS2002 (that's without any AFCAD modifications),FS will only have on active runway.if you close a runway with AFCAD,FS's criteria will still be the same for chosing a runway

[Guest Stamatis]

Thanks Seba, I suspected as much. I must admit it makes sense, even in a... perverse kind of way :-)Stamatis