RealAir, TJ (ROTW) and the Seneca five

[Guest]

HI Tony,Yes I agree the sim world is indeed poorer for having only one dominant product. I am not at odds with your previous posts at all, but I think was unfair of you to say we are "hyping" the SF260, since the word hype has connotations with exaggerated claims. All our statements about the Sf260 are true - it will perform exactly as we described. If you knew the amount of effort that has gone in to it you may have been a little more charitable.If the Fly2 "beta" team can make silk out of what some would call a sow's ear then they have my respect and admiration. To some extent the Falcon 4 team did wonders with the original product with a herculean effort. Maybe the same can be done here. But I know the problems with the core of this sim and I think it is a difficult job.I have long been a supporter of Fly as you know, so I don't think I should be seen as "the enemy". But, for whatever reasons, if a product ceases to be developed, supported or marketed by the owners and distributors of it, how can it proceed?Most of the problems with Fly2 relate to "enhancements" on Fly2k which actually failed. A classic example is the suspension modelling, which is unfinished, badly implemented and against the advice of many was passed as fit when in fact it would have been better abandoned. This is the reason why many Fly2 aircraft behave oddly on the ground. There are countless other examples where "new" routines and methods were used which did not match the Fly2k specifications for quality because they were either cut short in development or they were rushed in without proper evaluation and testing.This becomes an addon developer's nightmare, whereby at every stage you are fighting the core inadequacies of the fundamental product rather than seeking to further improve or enhance the inherent qualities.I agree the Fly2 2d panels are superior to anything in Fs2002, but a panel does not make a whole simulator.Best Regards,Rob Young

[Guest]

Thank you Randall. Marketing a good product for 16 bucks or so is still seen by some here as some kind of capitalist conspiracy to defraud! Our quest is for quality, more quality and still more quality. If we ever make any money out of it that's a bonus. But a good Fs2002 product attracts up to twenty times the downloads compared to Fly addons whether it is free or otherwise.Unfortunately that is the reality we have to assess when deciding whether to support a new addon with the enormous effort involved. Sad, but true. Making a product which has quality is satisfying. Seeing barely a couple of hundred people downloaded it is not.Best Regards,Rob Young

[LAdamson 240]

Rob.........If I'm forced to fly the "other sim", :) then I'll be looking forward to the SF260. Was able to get some firsthand dog fighting experience in these with the "Air Combat USA" fighter school. They are a lot of fun, as well as a good looking smaller aircraft.Looking foward to stalls, spins, & hopefully "fast breaks" into the spins. I ended up stalling the real one a lot! I was surprised just how easy it was to do during a dog fight session if you didn't keep your attention on it!L.Adamson

[Guest]

LefterisI actually have to agree with you on this. I often felt that if you could place the FS2002 scenery into Fly! then Fly would be the better sim.Both sims have their strong and weak points and I would dearly have loved to have seen a properly financed Fly!3 Other Than by ROTW there are few completed aircraft created for fly! because there is a huge amount of work to do the full thing.Having said that the same is happening in FS2002 where freeware by the individual is dying a death the cream of aircraft now being produced by commercial producers or consortium freeware enterprises.For one person to create a full aircraft in Fly! or FS2002 the level of work is immense and peoples expectations are so high that it is almost an impossible task for the lone builder to do.The result is that now almost all top notch addons are commercial addons and freeware as we knew it is dying a death.The difference is that FS2002 will support enough sales to warrant that level of work while Fly! wont.Peter

[Guest]

TonyIL2 is way above FS2002.I would love to see what those guys could do building a GA sim.Peter

[Guest]

BobFly! is firmly on my system and we have a very exciting Seneca Five due for release.In anything there has to be movement. In sims unless they are updated they soon become dated.That im afraid is TRIs resposibility. We are expected to produce for Fly! Then Tri must be expected to produce for us.By that I mean through stability in the life of the product and continuous updates ie Fly!2 B Fly!3 ETC.If the lead doesnt come from the top then the producers will drop out from below as appears to be happening.I would get immense pleasure to see fly! go from strength to Strength to hear that there is going to be a Fly!3 and all the improvements and features.I would be delighted to hear of even a Fly!2 B.I personally will continue to use Fly! and to help with freeware where I can whether with aircraft or weather/clouds which are my niche areas.All we are saying is that after the Seneca we can no longer support Fly! from a commercial stance unless soemthing dramatic occurs to change that.Peter

[LAdamson 240]

>The Mac community is a quiet one, especially since FS2002 >doesn't exist for us and I'm glad for that. >This could be your "LUCKY" day!!! FS2002 for the Mac..http://www.apple.com/games/articles/2001/07/destineer/L.Adamson

[Guest tonyc]

Rob, As always, in these wonderful debates there's always the risk of simpliflying things and not being very clear about some very important issues. First, you need not worry about your reputation in the FLY community: you are definitely in the top in terms of having given a great deal of your time to this hobby, and of creating great planes.What I tried to say is that when one sorts through the many airplanes that are uploaded everyday for fs2002, only very, very few make the grade. So, when it comes to the number of "real good airplanes", fs2002's planes are in the single digits--yours clearly fall into this category. So my point is that when one compares the real good planes in fs2002, they are just as few as as the ones available for FLY2. I don't know what others do, but I can only fly some many planes before I can barely tell the difference or really care. For example, I fly the 777 and the 757. If given a choice, would I have picked both aiplanes? no. The Citabria takes care of my single prop tailwheel, and the Pilatus and the Tbm700 take care of my high performance ,single engine flying. I fully recognize the need to make money and to pursue those commercial interests that one is free to choose. The bottom line is that I tend to gravitate to a plane or two that come close to what I am looking fo--and that's subjective. As for the "best" experience, for me the two sims are still fighting it out. If FLY loses, it will be because the money is not behind it and was never totally behind it--not because it's flawed. But think about it, this does not have to be about one sim against the other. It should be about simmers nurturing as many sims as possible. tony

[Guest Hagar]

Anyone here remember Falcon4 ? First it was a stricken flight sim. Then development from the publisher died. Then Falcon4 became a sort of religion, and it still is. My hat off to those guys.. It started with two different development groups, whitch became one in the end. Today you can download Falcon5, pure freeware, pure perfection...If they can do, we can do I hope...If not, well, arrgh...I feel an urgent need to dig up my sword and pull my longship outta my garage...

[michal 44]

>And then what, Michael? Did you read my post Dean ? I thought my post was clear. I did not suggest what they should or should not do afterwards. Perhaps they should brush their teeth and go to bed if hour is late ....Michael J.

[michal 44]

> So my point >is that when one compares the real good planes in fs2002, >they are just as few as as the ones available for FLY2. Absolutely correct. A typical FS user would probably be astounded to find out how few aircraft I flew in FS. Because I only use the handful which are the best. And, btw, some of those offer reality not even available in FLY planes - so FLY planes planes however good they are they do have shortcomings. I could at the moment only come up with the scrolling panels idea - the only remaining point of FLY's superiority. I do admit I always though those scrolling panels were a very cool idea and still beat the VC.So assuming that that aircarft in FLY and FS2002 are more-or-less tied for the first place what remains are outside visuals. And here I am afraid there is no competition. I even think FLY2 "looks" a lot worse than its predecessor FLY2k - again, just my personal view but I am afraid not very far from what majority thinks.Michael J.

[Guest]

Hi Peter as allways you are a class act. To do even scenery let aloneaircraft to the level of detail now demanded buy the public is a large undertakeing for anybody to take on. I for one understand howwell.. torn up you feel,your work for this sim was ground breaking!And we all know that the people at ROTW will not let you(or us downeither). I like you will ALLWAYS have a "soft spot" for Fly! and thisforum. And what we have all gained form Richard Harvey,you Rob Youngand many,many others. I for one will allways look forward to your work Pay or freeware in hopefully both sims. Dan http://members.rogers.com/klasik2/danlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[Guest]

Whoa, now! Let's not do anything drastic. No need to go a viking just yet. Besides it's not even winter yet...Cheers, Tony

[lefteris 70]

Hmm...Who here knows enough about BGL?

[Guest]

well, just like Dan Martin I am developing sceneries and models for both sims. Like many of you I have invested a couple of hundreds of hours (and bucks) for developing for fly2 , it was a great pleasure to produce something for this wonderful community and I will always be at service here. It is not a soccer match afterall that one sim beats the other, everyday we learn something very valuable from you guys, the developers and the users of both sims. Fly with very powerful development platform has been great school for us for everything; aviation, flights, development, commitment, sharing etc.But time is changing, now the sophistication of the users and the platforms dictate more and more labor, time and therefore cost and payware. But Peter, Rob, Lefteris and others we have learnt enthusiasm, devotion, commitment for excellence and frankness from you, whatever action you take, very sincerely I will be fully supportive.many thanksbiberwww.LTBA.net