an open source future for Fly?

[Guest DSandberg]

Don't forget about Take 2 Interactive, the publisher of Fly II. I fear their lawyers might have something to say about anything even closely resembling Fly II being sold by anyone other than themselves, regardless of how noble the purpose. (Recall that TRI was prevented from doing a followup release of Fly II with the new patches because Take 2 owns the rights unless much more significant changes were introduced.)[table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0][tr][td width=320]http://www.usinternet.com/users/mystic/infomsig.gif[/td][td width=170 align=center]God wants Richard Harvey to be his copilot.[/td][/tr][/table]

[Guest Fly II Pilot]

David:I don't, as you know (probably better than anyone else) there HAS been significant development and code change, especially in the Weather area but also in the runway lighting, font utilization, aircraft night textures implementation, navaid database (ILS), marker beacons behavior, etc.Furthermore, if several 3rd party developers agreed to donate their creations and have them bundled even with the current version of Fly! II, it would be considered as a new version and lawyers could do nothing about it. It would be similar to Fly!2k vs. Fly!Anyway, just thinking out loud...Alejandro AmigorenaCheshire, CTFly! II Beta Team MemberAthlon XP 1800ABIT KR7A-RAID768Mb RAMMSI GeForce 3 Ti 500 64MBSB Audigy GamerCH Flight Yoke USBCH Pro Pedals USB

[Guest DSandberg]

I have my doubts that the patched changes to date would set a new version apart sufficient from the released Fly II in a legal setting (although they are obvious to those of us here with an intimate familiarity with the program). However, I'd say you are correct in that the inclusion of add-ons would stand a better chance of helping it reach that point, as was the case with Fly2K. (Do you remember how much better the original version of Fly was after all the patches? In fact I'd opine that the patches for Fly 1.0 cumulatively made a significantly greater change in their sim that the Fly II patches have. But the inclusion of add-ons was still required to reach a threshold of distinctiveness sufficient to allow Fly2K to be released as a product separate from Fly 1.0).Of course it's all immaterial unless TRI sees fit to release the source code, which I've already commented on elsewhere in this thread. There are a lot of hurdles to be overcome.[table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0][tr][td width=320]http://www.usinternet.com/users/mystic/infomsig.gif[/td][td width=170 align=center]God wants Richard Harvey to be his copilot.[/td][/tr][/table]

[lefteris 70]

David-Alejandro has a point:Rich has already mentioned a couple times in the past that Take2 already had (and used) the right of refusal for any new publishing of the Fly! series. As such, the code is now wholly owned by TRI alone - TRI can decide what they will do with it without Take2's input on this. Rich also mentioned that the code is significantly changed to satisfy the requirement about similarities.Who's going to approach Evan Russell?

[Guest tonyc]

You can do it, Lefteris. I still use AS2 and, as you may know, this sim has the old ATP graphics engine. Single handed, Simon took an antiquated sim and turned it into a fairly reliable sim, concentrating on md80 flight modeling. He's currently working on a brand new AS3 from scratch, but it's possible. Let's not forget what x-plane represents: one man's dream. Let's face it, we're not talking about nuclear secrets or software that is earning millions of dollars. As we know, lots of gaming software is dead on arrival. The proprietary and monetary value of games,including simss,changes from month to month, depending on the winds of change. Take for example, PMDG's software, as time passes its planes for FLY will not have any value. So what stops Pmdg from distributing its planes for free? I still have many flight sim titles in the basement: pro pilot, original FLY, atp, MSFS and many others. Why do I have them? no reason other than sentimental value. I know that if someone approached me on these, I'd probably give them all away. Some one should talk to TRI, perhaps you or Tom Allensworth or some people involved in the open source business. For Richard, FLY was his life--not just another job--and this has great value and weight when anyone talks to TRI. The money that anyone would earn from FLY2 sales is insignificant with respect to the idea of keeping a great sim alive. So, if the hook for TRI is some sort of protection for parts of their software, Lefteris, offer them a deal they can't refuse. And if they say no, heck, you've tried.tony

[Guest Fly II Pilot]

Last night I sent an e-mail to Evan Russell to see where he's at on this subject. If anybody is interested in seeing a copy of the message, just drop me a message and I will forward it to you.Let's hope he responds. I sent it to his work e-mail address.It is probably better to join forces and have just a limited group of representatives talking to TRI and I agree in that Lefteris and Tom are probably the best candidates, as long as they are willing to.So, Lefteris and Tom, what do YOU think?Alejandro AmigorenaCheshire, CTFly! II Beta Team MemberAthlon XP 1800ABIT KR7A-RAID768Mb RAMMSI GeForce 3 Ti 500 64MBSB Audigy GamerCH Flight Yoke USBCH Pro Pedals USB

[Guest DSandberg]

I must have missed where Rich said that.Good luck![table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0][tr][td width=320]http://www.usinternet.com/users/mystic/infomsig.gif[/td][td width=170 align=center]God wants Richard Harvey to be his copilot.[/td][/tr][/table]

[Guest dajackman]

I hate to say this....Maybe we should hook up with these guys:http://www.flightgear.orgOpen source flight sim that has a pretty good start.If something doesn't happen soon, the others sims will pass us by, and it isn't going to take that long. Some of them are getting close now. I would really hate to see this happen. After reading this thread, I'm getting a little worried for the future of Fly. I would be surprised if we got anything from TRI. There are in a pretty tough business as it is worrying about turning a profit. But like most of us, I will hope (prey) for the best.

[Guest]

Alejandro, Im not really sure if you or any one else here is aware of Evan's position as of 08 / 21 / 2001. On this date he was promoted to VP of Terminal Reality. http://www.terminalreality.com/news.htmThe one thing that comes to mind here is the date. As you will see for yourself when you visit the site. This is the last update for any news on the site. Kind of stagnant if you ask me. I also checked out some of the forums for 4X4 evo and 4X4 Evo2. These are other titles that were released and designed by Terminal Reality. Not to rain on the parade but I wouldnt get hopes up for any resolution to this. It would be great to see some movement in the direction of releasing the code. Its not going to happen. I also noticed that with regards to the 4X4 programs it was repeat of what we saw happen with Fly2. A early release with too many bugs. I'm not pointing fingers at Richard or Russell. These things were beyond their control. But now that Evan is in the Vice president's seat. I'm sure the least of his worries or concerns are Fly2. I could be wrong and hope that I am wrong. imohttp://mywebpages.comcast.net/cadillac43/dedication.htmlhttp://mywebpages.comcast.net/cadillac43/takeoff.gifTonyFlyII! ver. 2.40Directx 8.1nVidia drivers 41.09

[KenWood 5]

>If something doesn't happen soon, the others sims will pass >us by, and it isn't going to take that long. Some of them >are getting close now. I would really hate to see this >happen. I don't quite share that feeling. Look at the Flight Unlimited series. It has been around for quite some time, and despite that, there is a flourishing community of dedicated workers who do what they can to help breathe new life into the series. That is pretty fair proof to me that something good doesn't have to end simply because the publishing company no longer offers support and upgrades. And the Flt Unl. series does not have near the open coding (much less any real SDK) we have available to us with the Fly! series. The supporters/ developers for that series really had a lot to overcome, IMHO - and have persevered.The same holds for our Fly! series. There are many dedicated developers out there who work long and hard - for no pay most often - and help to enhance the program simply because they love doing that. Granted, there will come a time when one may no longer feel like doing that, but for the most part, that will most likely be when I can no longer see anyway! :-lolAbout the *only* worry I can see currently, is what do we do once the computers advance enough that we can no longer run our sim of choice with the latest and greatest hardware/software for the latest OS? Me - I will just keep the last OS that my sims run under great, is all... ;-)Just my two cents worth...Ken Wood

[Guest Fly II Pilot]

Tony:I am very well aware of that as this was towards the end of the post-release beta testing/patching phase. The beta team members even had a chance to congratulate him...Once Richard returned, Evan chose to stay away from the process and left everything to Richard. I like to believe that he has been in the background, lurking around, but not actively participating...Even if nothing happens, we still have a wonderful simulator with tons of untapped potential to discover and develop.Because of the steep learning curve and the complexity of the systems and things Fly! can model, many want-to-be-developers (including myself) are at a point where they have learned enough so as to start attempting to build aircraft, sceneries or utilities.I'm amazed at Fly!'s flexibility and complexity and am finding it as interesting (if not more) to develop as to flying.Think positive, and let's hope for the best. That's all we can do. Alejandro AmigorenaCheshire, CTFly! II Beta Team MemberAthlon XP 1800ABIT KR7A-RAID768Mb RAMMSI GeForce 3 Ti 500 64MBSB Audigy GamerCH Flight Yoke USBCH Pro Pedals USB

[Guest DSandberg]

Bravo! Precisely my feeling on the subject. I think there's been far too much concern expressed in this thread that "the sim will die" unless TRI makes Fly II open source. With the power of the SDK that is already available to us for Fly II, I believe it can survive and flourish quite nicely without further patches. I furthermore believe that's where the community's energies should be focused from here on out, rather than on the long shot of badgering TRI yet again to release their source code.[table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0][tr][td width=320]http://www.usinternet.com/users/mystic/infomsig.gif[/td][td width=170 align=center]God wants Richard Harvey to be his copilot.[/td][/tr][/table]

[Guest tonyc]

dumb question: what will the sdks not be able to do? And are those "cannot do with the sdks" important?tony

[Guest Fly II Pilot]

Tony:Very, very good point! I think that almost anything can be done, the problem is to know HOW to do it. It's very simple, just look at what PMDG was able to do with the 757!!!Unfortunately I'm just starting to learn C++ but do you know the reason why I decided to learn it on my own? It's Fly!Alejandro AmigorenaCheshire, CTFly! II Beta Team MemberAthlon XP 1800ABIT KR7A-RAID768Mb RAMMSI GeForce 3 Ti 500 64MBSB Audigy GamerCH Flight Yoke USBCH Pro Pedals USB

[Guest tonyc]

Well, let's get the more experienced folks to tell us what cannot be done with the sdks, so that we can start concentrating on the sdks.tony