as a pilot, I declare the fly 2 407 to be the best helo sim yet

[Guest]

i hear alot of whining about the fouroseven but its flight handeling and realism are unmatched by any other commercially available simulator.

[Guest Jan]

I have tried every sim or game with helicopters over the years,and must agree with you.It's not perfect,but very close to a real helo.Some tweaking is necesary to get it closer.And after flying theprofessional S61 simulator a few days ago,I'm even more happy with it.The way it hovers is just like the pro sim.Also riding on the ground effect was 100% match.And autorotation in the real sim was easy because of FlyIIs realism.TRI did a good job,even if it was prematurlyreleased and not finished.Now it's up to us to make it even better.Jan

[Guest]

for sure. I was wondering what kind of tweaking you refer to. Ive only actually flown one helicopter because im not turbine rated yet so i dont know what really needs fixing. the only problem i noticed was the sensitivity of the collective. thats definetly the furthest thing from real in the 407. If you know how to fix that let me know

[Guest HeliFLYer]

First of all - no doubt, the FLY2 Bell 407 IS my favourite heli, some X-Plane custom-designed helis which I also like to fly are far away from the Bell 407.I am no pilot but heli addict and since many years have the opportunity to discuss several aspects of heli-simulation with our professional BK 117 pilots as I am a crew member. So all things I have to say are very relative but seem to be worth to discuss: 1. ground effect - try to land on a platform with a small angle could be deadly in real life, real heli pilots have sight to ground and go down steep), the 407 will lift like a balloon - ground effect is much to strong. 2. FADEC - is there any??? 3. Autorotation - cut off fuel valve, pitch down, hold autorotoation speed, hold rotor rpm, at adaquate height flare ... it will last ENDLESS until 407 can be set on ground (must have enormous kinetic energy in rotor system!), in some areas (San Fran) from time to time it sails like a sailplane, up and down, you can fly 10 minutes without turbines (our BK 117 "falls like a brick" when autorotating. 4. Top speed: 4 persons + baggage, 85 % torque, straight and level flight, get 140 knots (and even more), seems not to be realistic. 5. Make a ground-near flare - get a crash even (outside look) if your tailrotor is far away from ground 6. Reaction to stick-input: large null-zone, reaction slow for a rotorsystem without joints (elastomeric bearings) . MAY be realistic(???), as our pilots say, the rotorsystem of the bell is constructed to be "comfortable", means more damping than comparable european rotorsystems. 6. Could say more, may be later if interest, to express in english is a plague for me.At last: 1. All FLY2-patches, Bell Fix 8 or Bell RH, 100 % realism, aircraft options exponential 0 %, pedals, separate throttle/torque 2. I want to learn, therefore no bad emotions, discuss fair and objective, WE ALL LOVE our FLY2! Would pay double price FS2k4 for a FLY3!

[Guest Jan]

Hello HeliFLYer.Glad you like the FLYII helo too.All you mentioned isadjustable within the different World files.exept the Fadec.It's broken.The 407 is too powerfull.It's much more like the good people down at the factory would like it to be :) The ground effect is adjustable in the rotor file,down to zero.Also the autorotation speed,RPM and sink rate can be done more like real life.Power and torque at liftoff,climb and top speed can be changed within rotor,engine and wing files.Reaction to stick input is also in there somewere.The tendency to crash with low tail can be changed or removed completly.There is so many parameters that interact that it's a long and frustrating process.Compromizing is the solution.Tweaking my AS365 Dauphin give me grey hairs,but I'm almost happy with it.Get most of my info from crews I'm working with.And some guessing.We willnever get the real thing,but a fairly good compromise,for a nice PC sim that's almost free.FLY safely.Jan

[Guest HeliFLYer]

Jan, thank you very much for your hints. Though it sounds to be a lot of work (experimental process) I will try to do my best to get some improvements as (virtual) heli-flying is a very important part of my life (firing FLY2/Bell407 in the evening still feeling the vibrations in my body from a real-life long-distance heli-flight).Georg

[Guest HeliFLYer]

FIRST:Made many, many ship-landings this late European evening with/without ground effect changes as discribed below AND with/without changing "ignoreSlopeWind=1", "percentOfWindOnGround=20" of fly.ini as described by Randall Rocke. I found out that only changing fly.ini AND Ground Effect Data brings acceptable results.SECONDLY:Just some words for those who read Jans hints and don't know really how to make these adjustments (like me, had to find it out today, took the evening):Get how_to_make_a_pod.zip from AVSIM library. Read page 1 (UNPODDING, until A:) and Chapter I page 5 (I:the podding).MY WAY: (the following is PC/Windows) Start: select a heli of your choice, make a backup of the POD (FLY2/aircraft). Use podview (FLY2/tools). If already associated with POD-files, just click twice on the heli-POD-file with the left mouse button. Otherwise use Podview, select the heli-pod with "files/open". Podview shows all files of that aircraft, if the aircraft is a modified original TRI-heli the POD has only the changed files (MY interpretation). So if you want to see ALL have a look into the TRI PODS. Otherwise (i.e. Bell 407-Fix-V8.pod) you see the WORLD-Dir with heli-relevant files. Test it! Use Podview/Edit/Selec All then Podview/File/Extract selected files. Use Recreate directory structure. Define a directory of your choice. Click OK. Have a look at the files in your new directory with EDITOR. Try to change some VARS just to see how it works. I used BELL407.RTR (rotor) and patched -- Ground Effect Data -- from 0.5 to 0.2. To create a new heli with the new ground effect I had to change the name of the .nfo-file, edit the .nfo-file -- Make and Model -- AND <_SIT> -- Debug Situation -- AND <_RTR> -- Rotor Manager -- to the new heli-name, edit the .sit-file <_NFO> ---- Vehicle Info Files ---- to the new heli-name and changed also the .sit-file name.Use Pod Creator (from AVSIM) to pod the changed files *.rtr, *.sit, *.nfo . Read PodCreator help.htm first. Start Initialisation, get your work directory. Create Response File, I selected WORLD, then selected *.rt, *.sit, *.nfo, then OPEN. Save Response File. Start Create Pod, select your Response File, fill form, OK, POD will be created.Test your craft. Have fun! If you don't feel the difference, change -- Ground Effect Data -- to 5.0 - now heavy, heavy effect!Thank you very much Jan, Randall Rocke, merci beaucoup ROTW!

[Guest Jan]

I'm happy you got it in the right direction.Now change the Settling effect to say, 0.2 in thrust,and 40 in relative speed.It's next to Ground effect.Climb up to a few hundred feet,hover and cut your fuel switch.I spoke to a Dauphin pilot here at work yesterday.The sink ratein stabilised autorotation is up to 2500 feet/min.It falls.Also try changing Aero Torque from cyclic from 0.6 to 1.0 for example.And Trustfactor to 0.8 for the mainrotor.In the Engine file,change the -- Torque Constant to a lower number.It raises the Ng compared to torque input.At max torque the Ng should be at or close to 100% on most choppers.Experiment a bit with the settings in the Rotor and Engine files,and you will get a more real life helo.Just keep them in the World folder until you'r happy.Then you can Pod them later if you prefer.Remember to keep your originals somewhere else.If you don't want your changes anymore,just delete the files from your World folder,and FlyII uses the default Pod in the Aircraft folder.BTW,if your helo rotate on ground with rotors running,change the Min or Max blade angle for the tail rotor.Only one of them,depending on the direction it moves.You get it even more acurate by adding a fraction of a digit too.(10.2 instead of 10 for example)Take care.JanEDIT:Here is my 407 test file for rotor.Put in the numbers into your own file.Don't copy and past,you might alter the format.Set exponential for aileron and elevator to 0%. -- Blade Pitch Trim (degrees) ----------> 2.0 -- Rotor Location (ft) -- 0,2,0 -- Rotor Axis Orientation (deg) -- -89.5,0,0 -- Disc Damping Cf -- 0.2,-0.2,0.0 -- Damping Sensitivity Adjust -- 3.0 -- Aero Torque from Cyclic Cf ---------> -0.9,0.9,0.0 -- Rotor Brake Torque (ft-lb) -- 2000.0 -- Rotor Rotation Direction -- -1 -- Blade Element Version Number -- 1 - blade count 4 -- blade mean width (ft) -- 0.75 -- rotor diameter (ft) -- 35.0-------> -- rotor inertia (slug-sq.ft) -- 1808.3 -- Gear Reduction Ratio -- (6317 to 413) 15.29 -- Cyclic Pitch angle (degrees) -- 20 -- Cyclic Cone angle (degrees) -- 20 -- min blade pitch angle (degree) -- -1 -- max blade pitch angle (degree) -- 9 -- min blade cone angle (degree) -- 0 -- max blade cone angle (degree) -- 80 -- Thrust Factor -------> 0.8 -- Torque Factor -------> 0.9 -- Ice Accumulation Rate (hz) -- 0.005 -- Ice Drag Coeficent -- 0.02 -- Gyroscopic Effect Factor -- 1.0 -- Cyclic Center Limit -- 0.075 -- Initial Rotor Frame Fraction -- 0.125 -- Ground Effect Data -------> 0.2 // thrust factor-----> 17.0 // AGL (ft) -- Settling Effect Data -- 0.2 // thrust factor-----> 40.0 // relative vertical speed (fps) -- Lift Cf vs AOA Table (Blade Element 1) -- -- AOA (radians), f(aoa) 1.57, -5.0e-7, 2.671654 -- end data -- Drag Cf vs AOA Table (Blade Element 1) -- -- AoA (radians), f(aoa) -------> 1.57, 0.004751, 0.054041. 0.049667 -- end data

[Guest Jan]

Here is also the VLD entry I'm testing.Passengers and baggage is placed to far aft in the default helo(IMO)Put in these numbers,and youcan load it to max without tail dropping down.Try them,or alter them until you'r satisfied.And if you want to get rid of the tail crashing problem,change the model coordinates for the Bumper Stinger or Vertical tailin the WHL file if I remember correct.Move them up or forward.Middle number is up/down,and last number is fore/aft.Jan - Single Load Entry - - name of Load - Right Mid Passenger - location of load WRT Design CG (fT) - 1.5,0,-1.0 - weight at load location (lbs) - 0 - max weight limit (lbs) - 350 - UI Type Info Right Mid Passenger - Single Load Entry - - name of Load - Left Mid Passenger - location of load WRT Design CG (fT) - -1.5,0,-1.0 - weight at load location (lbs) - 0 - max weight limit (lbs) - 350 - UI Type Info Left Mid Passenger - Single Load Entry - - name of Load - Right Aft Passenger - location of load WRT Design CG (fT) - 1.5,0,-3.0 - weight at load location (lbs) - 0 - max weight limit (lbs) - 350 - UI Type Info Right Aft Passenger - Single Load Entry - - name of Load - Left Aft Passenger - location of load WRT Design CG (fT) - -1.5,0,-3.0 - weight at load location (lbs) - 0 - max weight limit (lbs) - 350 - UI Type Info Left Aft Passenger - Single Load Entry - - name of Load - Baggage - location of load WRT Design CG (fT) - 0.0,0,-16.0 - weight at load location (lbs) - 0 - max weight limit (lbs) - 250 - UI Type Info Baggage

[Guest Doc Parano]

Merci beaucoup Messieurs pour ces pr

[Guest Jan]

Hello Doc.Thanks.It's a start at least.And if the great ROTW team everwant to develop some of the French helicopters in our fleet, in the famous ROTW standard,I'll gladly help.Technical info,manuals, photos and all you need.Just give a hint :-hahJan

[Guest Doc Parano]

Hi Jan, (Please forgive me for my english!)Unfortunatly ROTW team is yet very busy with other projects...Later? Why not!But looking forward we are very interested by your work and all improvements brought to our favorite sim.We support you!:) :) :)

[Guest HeliFLYer]

Hello Jan and once again thank you very much! What I got from you is much more than I ever could expect. And therefore I have to go through it step by step as beside patching heli-aerodynamics many associated things are really new for me - pods, what they are, how to use and change them, what FLY will do. That was my intention to write very exactly how i transmitted the hints you gave, so that other beginners like me could learn from it. Though I used FLY! and FLY!2 for a long time, it was not covered by my view that FLY2 is really such a wonderful OPEN system!Due to lack of time it will last some weeks until I have tested all your advices an got some results.Best wishes to you and your heli-project. Hope to hear more about it soon! HeliFLYer Georg