ROTW PA-28 v230.... Does it pull to the right?

[Roger Mazengarb 0]

G'day Larry,>Seriously..........Hmmm. Staight through to the keeper. :-)Sorry Larry I was being far too subtle.>If the prop is viewed from the "front" of the plane; as in>standing in front......... it's rotation is>counter-clockwise.The propeller on a Cherokee rotates CLOCKWISE (period). Propeller rotation is stated as experienced from the pilots seat, just as are the port and starboard engines/wings etc. The reason it is important is that the fixed pitch prop is fitted with blades at the ten past eight position with *1 cylinder at TDC but if you use your "front" view you will end up fitting the prop at the ten to four position. >Between P-factor, torque, & slip-stream; the PA-28 Warrior,>Archer, or Arrow will pull to the left during the takeoff roll>& climbout. Which requires right rudder to compensate. One may expect all this to occur but;David posted that he wanted to the Cherokee in Fly! II behave like the one he is learning to fly on, not like the aircraft you have flown.Makes a mockery of all the BS you see posted on the forums about how real the flight modelling is of aircraft in the sims. We are all aware of the Monday morning lemon when it comes to cars. Why should aircraft be immune to this. >This pic is old, since the engine now has all the baffles,>hoses, & wires connected; but you can at least see the pitch>of the prop. P.S.... the fixed pitch props turn the same>way..Yep sure do: CLOCKWISE :-)Nice pic Larry got a more recent one.CheersRoger

[LAdamson 240]

>>The propeller on a Cherokee rotates CLOCKWISE (period).>Propeller rotation is stated as experienced from the pilots>seat, just as are the port and starboard engines/wings etc. And it's always stated.............. such as from the rear of aircraft. But............... if you're going to hand prop, pull the blades through on a radial engine; or just hand flipping the prop of an R/C engine; then you better be thinking "counter-clockwise" in the majority of cases. At least I did say........... from the front. > One may expect all this to occur but;>>David posted that he wanted to the Cherokee in Fly! II behave>like the one he is learning to fly on, not like the aircraft>you have flown.Are there ANY single engine Piper Cherokee's that pull to the right from torque, slip-stream, and P-factor? If so, has the engine been replaced with something else; as well the the right canted engine mounts?>Makes a mockery of all the BS you see posted on the forums>about how real the flight modelling is of aircraft in the>sims. We are all aware of the Monday morning lemon when it>comes to cars. Why should aircraft be immune to this.Over at the MSFS forum, we already know that some of the best single engine aircraft ever produced for ANY flight simulation are from RealAir simulations (Rob Young). I think he was around this forum once... :D>Nice pic Larry got a more recent one.>On the other CPU ------- I'll get someAnd back to seriousness again.... :)If there are PA28's that really pull to the right, I'd like to know. I lost my hard-drive a few months ago, and no longer have FLYII installed. Lost all those good looking So-Cal pics too! I had this Warrior also, but don't remember it pulling to the right. But it's been far too long to really remember.L.Adamson

[Roger Mazengarb 0]

G'day Larry,>At least I did say........... from the front.The main purpose for my post!>Are there ANY single engine Piper Cherokee's that pull to the>rightYes: N3024ZI must accept Davids statement. After all he is sitting in the seat flying the aircraft Why? Don't know. Something may be not quite straight with the engine or airframe or rigging or loading>Over at the MSFS forum, we already know that some of the best>single engine aircraft ever produced for ANY flight simulation>are from RealAir simulations (Rob Young). I think he was>around this forum once... Hhmmm! We..! Official spokesperson for the MSFS forum. Self appointed I assume?? :-)What has this got to do with N3024Z pulling to the right? Larry this is pretty low, trying to start a sim v sim argument.Fortunately I know you from way back so you are out of luck. :-lolI would like to see some more pics of your homebuilt. Much better than arguing about sims. :-)Cheers,Roger @YSSY

[LAdamson 240]

>I must accept Davids statement. After all he is sitting in the>seat flying the aircraft>> Why? Don't know. Something may be not quite straight with>the engine or airframe or rigging or loading>Since David appears to be a student pilot, I'm more inclined to think it's just an error on his part. Looking at the planes registry, it's a 1979 PA-28-161 which I'm quite familier with ..... year wise. If something was that misrigged, it sure shouldn't be flying. But I highly doubt misrigging has anything to do with it.So yes ----- the prop turns clockwise from the rear, and that's what my Lycoming manual says! :) And...................the plane had better be drifting to the left when the prop is rotating to the right.........from the "rear"; and the same with simulated ones! Let's not confuse those who are trying to get a grip on what's suppose to happen ----- flight wise.And BTW--- no "sim argument". Just going from your paragraph regarding sims & their flight dynamics. Although I didn't totally understand the "meaning"..L.Adamson

[Roger Mazengarb 0]

G'day Larry,>Since David appears to be a student pilot, I'm more inclined>to think it's just an error on his part.>Possible; But I have to give even a student pilot credit for knowing his left from his right. >So yes ----- the prop turns clockwise from the rear, and>that's what my Lycoming manual says! :)Checking up on me! :-lol Larry my reference to flight dynamics and sims is simply that it is overated hype. A "fudge" is the actual word used by one developer to describe flight dynamics. Obviously payware developers have a vested interest in declaring that their aircraft has true to life flight dynamics but many on the forum take it all far too seriously. Flight dynamics; a contradiction of terms in a static sim?This thread has had a good run and gone about as far as I'm willing to go. We will just have to agree to disagree re N3024Z pulling to the right.Over and outCheers,Roger @YSSY

[LAdamson 240]

>Hey Larry!>Maybe you were flying the English or Australian PA-28 :( >In which side of the cockpit you were sitting?>Just kidding.:-hah Just as a "well timed" coincidence, I happened to catch a rerun of a "Plane is Born" on the Disovery Wings channel last night. This particular program is produced in the U.K. And wouldn't you know it..................It included a lesson in the PA28 Archer or perhaps Warrior (I don't remember after seeing it three or four times---- but didn't pay attention)Anyway.............. since it was lesson #1, they specifically discussed the left pull tendency & required right rudder during the takeoff roll & once the wheels leave the ground. Of course this was now an "English" registered PA-28.... :D P.S. ---- for anyone wondering what this left pull is like, even for a Warrior or Cessna 172; it's not just a "whimpy" little bit of directional drift in one direction, or wandering from side to side like some sims may indicate. It's very pronounced, & you'll be pushing against this "force" during the takeoff roll & climb. I always compare it to steering against a gutter or water skiing on the edge of a boats wake. I also know first hand what happens if the airplane's engine goes to idle just before rotation. Because of the right rudder pressure require to keep the plane on the centerline, the plane will make a quick "beeline" to the right side runway lights until corrected. This was a 172 with 180HP.Of course----------- this is with a prop turning "clockwise" viewed from behind the engine, or counter clockwise as viewed from the front! :)No use letting this thread go to waste........... as it's "real" information---- that appears to have some "flawed" :) disagreement & this forum isn't exactly busting at it's seams..L.Adamson

[Guest Fly II Pilot]

I can't believe I'm typing this... :-lol but I have to agree with Larry; the Archer should pull to the left so you need to compensate with rudder with the right pedal.Sorry :-hahhttp://www.avsim.com/hangar/fly/dfdg/banneraa.jpg

[LAdamson 240]

>I can't believe I'm typing this... :-lol but I have to agree>with Larry; the Archer should pull to the left so you need to>compensate with rudder with the right pedal.>Great! I thought I was on one of those opposite planets.... on the other side of the sun, or something.. :-roll But figuring that I soloed in the Warrier, finished my PPL in the Archer, and a complex endorsment in the Arrow --------- that somehow I know how a real PA-28 Piper product acts during it's travel down the runway & climb. If we want to program a simulator to be as real as possible............... then it's not "agreeing to disagree". Facts only!Also flown the Seminole & Seneca, but they go "straight"... :)L.Adamson

[Guest Fly II Pilot]

Larry,I've flown over 200 hours on a Piper PA-24 Comanche 250 and also about 40 or 50 on a Cessna 210 Centurion II and trust me, both needed right pedal to compensate for torque/p-factor and everything else that you can think of... ;-)Take care,http://www.avsim.com/hangar/fly/dfdg/banneraa.jpg

[Guest laurentC]

Hi all,Don't know if this can help ... or not (!), but the propeller spin direction can easily be changed in the ENG file : just change a -1 in 1 and every one can have a plane that pull to the right or to the left according his preffered side ...I can't remeber if there are some figures in the wings to compensate this side behaviour but trial and error can't hurt anyway !Cheers,Laurent (rotw)

[dkohl 0]

Geez - in the 2 weeks or so since I've not been able to login to AVSIM, I see a caused a big stir and I apologize. My real Piper pulls to the left on takeoff, causing me to need right rudder. When I posted to AVSIM, I made a mistake in describing my plane. So perhaps I can fix what confusion I must have caused... again, I apologize.The reason for my original post was that the PA-28 v230 from ROTW appears to pull to the right, begining a bank if one does not keep a foot on the pedels at all times. This is different than the real plane that will bank left if one does not use right rudder to counteract engine torque at high power settings.To make v230 more realistic, one would have to program a bit of left roll tendency into the plane during high power settings, which would not be the case during lower (cruise) power settings. Sorry to cause all this confusion. It was late at night when I made my original posting and after flying the v230 for two hours, I guess I had it mixed up. N3024z and N81441, two planes I fly regularly, both behave as all Warriors do. I am just suggesting that Fly!2 v230 might need some P-factor tweaking at high power settings to increase realism.Again, sorry.-DK----David KohlFly! II v2.5.240Dell 8200 P4/1.8G, 1024MB RAM, Nvidia GF4 Ti4600 v52.16, WinXP Home Edition SP1.CH Pro Pedals and Yoke USB.

[Roger Mazengarb 0]

G'day David,Absolutely no apology necessary mate. There was no confusion; at least not in my mind. You made a simple mistake and have now corrected it; end of story.One of these days I'll pluck up the courage to tell a few stories about mistakes I've made. :-)Cheers,Roger @YSSY

[LAdamson 240]

>>Sorry to cause all this confusion. It was late at night when I>made my original posting and after flying the v230 for two>hours, I guess I had it mixed up. >I figured it was just a mistake........And good to hear it pulls to the left! :)L.Adamson

[Guest Colins2]

Don't apologize David :-)This topic livened up the forum a bit and made interesting reading!CheersColin

[dkohl 0]

I think the reason I started this thread was because I was excited to fly the new v230 PA-28, but found it to pull to the right, when, in fact, it should pull a little left at high power settings, but fly straight and level at lower settings.Perhaps we can get back to that topic. Does anyone have the time or technical capability to work that magic?My Best.-DK----David KohlFly! II v2.5.240Dell 8200 P4/1.8G, 1024MB RAM, Nvidia GF4 Ti4600 v52.16, WinXP Home Edition SP1.CH Pro Pedals and Yoke USB.