Fly! II on OS X 10.2!!!

[Guest]

Ok, first, this is my first post here

[Guest Allan Jones]

Welcome, and thanks for posting those encouraging results!We hope to see you here often.

[Guest ftessler]

Thanks for the post!Yes, this does look encouraging. To get the frame rate, hit control F, which brings up a graph. The horizontal lines represent 10 and 20 FPS. Sometimes, going to an external view and "panning" around the aircraft will reduce stuttering.-Franklin------------------------------Franklin TesslerDP 800Fly! for Mac Co-moderator

[Guest Allan Jones]

Re stuttering...the tower view uses a low-res external a/c model so the rates are usually much better in that view. Any frame rates reports since Franklin gave you the ctrl-F command? (Sorry, I didn't see that part when I first read your post.)When tracking rates while tweaking settings, it's a good idea to set up a standard position with one aircraft. I use the FlyHawk (C172). For internal views I use shift-arrow to poisition the panel so the "sacred six" gauges are in view but no higher. For External views, I set the time to noon, slew to 8000' over generic scenery, set the max view distance to 20, make sure the external zoom is at 2.67 (the default -- hit the TAB key until you see a view number in the lower left corner). Then I position the camera directly off one wing level with the wing.Here's a handy edit to make the TAB key give you more info: open the fly.ini file (in Fly's system folder), make a back-up copy, then find the section labeled "UI." Find the line:allowDebugInfo=0and change the 0 to 1 and save. That will let the TAB key show rates (not as accurately as ctrl-F) and makes sure the zoom ratio shows. Ignore the array of weird numbers across the upper part of the screen--meaningless to Mac drivers.And remember....checking rates affects rates. Fly can't draw the rate graph and still maintain normal sim rates. I see a 2-3 fps drop when I invoke the graph or use the tab key in external view. To prove it to yourself. Toggle the graph on and off and watch the line go up and down.

[Guest]

I had a similar experience last night!My system is as follows:Dual G4 1Ghz, 1gb ramGeForce 4MX"Beta" of OSX 10.2Most up-to-date instal of FLY! 2After loading FLY! 2 I was amazed that it actually worked! It is VERY flyable! The FPS were 65/2!!! I was completely astonished! Menu bar shows up, FPS remain good regardless of view or even with the panel showing.

[Guest ftessler]

That's very encouraging. What does the frame rate graph show?-Franklin------------------------------Franklin TesslerDP 800Fly! for Mac Co-moderator

[Guest Allan Jones]

That "65/2" means 65 divided by 2, still excellent rates.The graph Franklin mentions is accessed by typing control-F. Each horizontal line is 10 fps.

[Guest]

This is exactly what I hoped to see. Apple is now having to use OpenGL for their 2D windowing systems, so I expected them to run into the same problems using their old OpenGL implementation that plagued our 2D drawing as well. Since all of our calls are directly into their OpenGL implementation, Jaguar gives us their new speed improvements for "free". I had been told that there was a very good chance we would see greater than 100% improvement in frame rates, and this seems to be actually an understatement. Allan is right that the sim rate of 65/2 equates to 32.5fps; when most people have been stuck with 8-12fps, this is almost a 300% increase in frame rate.Rich

[Guest ftessler]

Rich,Good to see you here! :)What does this mean as far as releasing a patch for Fly! II is concerned? If 10.2 really takes care of the frame rate problems, doesn't that only leave a recompile to bring the Mac and the PC versions in line?Would it be helpful for you at this point to know how many of us are running OS X as our primary OS?-Franklin------------------------------Franklin TesslerDP 800Fly! for Mac Co-moderator

[Guest Allan Jones]

Thanks, Rich!Any hope for those of use whose equipment limits us to OS9? I know the Beige G3 is supposed to handle OSX but a lot of " beige" people are reporting struggles with X.By upgrading my processor recently, I had hoped to keep this box a little longer.Thanks again for the update.

[Guest ftessler]

Hi, Allan.Have you tried running OS X on your upgraded Beige G3? I'm running it on my 400MHz Lombard PowerBook w only 256MB of RAM, and it's very usable. I'm looking forward to seeing how much 10.2 improves things when I get it this weekend.-Franklin------------------------------Franklin TesslerDP 800Fly! for Mac Co-moderator

[Guest Allan Jones]

Franklin,When I'm not hanging here, I spend time on Apple's G3 discussion boards--folks are just about as nice as here! Results of running OSX on beige G3s are "spotty" --some people are happy and other are not. Many new problems show up. It's not all in speed--my 500 should be fine. There are some firmware issues that don't affect B&W's and later machines. For example, on a beige, OSX must be installed in the first partition and that partition must be less than 8GB. Initially, no one flinched, but now some folks say that they have programs that must run at the same level as the start-up folder and they've run out of room. I' have 90 percent of my 28 GB used, largely with Fly stuff.The concensus on that board is that the optimum OS for the beige is 9.1. I'm just now condering upgrading to that OS! Have to watch coins with Rachel starting college yesterday. Her eMac hasn't arrived yet! Back-ordered! )If I can keep the eMac here a few days under the pretext of "set-up" I'll try loading FlyII. I'm pretty sure that it will come with 10.2.)Having bought a computer for Rachel, I'm stuck with the G3 for a while! If the patch doesn't help performace on the older OS's, I guess I'll be back to 2K until I can afford a newer model.see ya,

[Guest]

Allan,In your travels over at Apple, have you seen anything about 10.2 being able to run on a Mac with a processor upgrade installed? Jaguar sounds very promising and looks like it could make a significant difference with Fly! II. But... Apple states it doesn't support processor upgrades. I'm not sure if that means 10.2 will not work on a Mac with a processor upgrade, or that Apple will not provide support to those who use 10.2 with an upgrade. Rich@KLEWBeige G3 233 MHz DT rev.1 G4 400 MHz NewerTech upgrade OS 9.2.2 384 MB RAM ATI Radeon Mac (PCI) Thrustmaster FCS/WCS

[Guest ftessler]

Rich,I suspect that Apple won't officially support OS X on any Mac with a processor upgrade, since none are provided by Apple. However, OS X will run perfectly on many upgraded Macs. For example, my blue G3 with its 500MHz G4 upgrade works fine under OS X. As Allan mentioned, older G3s can be problematic, although some people have had better luck.-Franklin------------------------------Franklin TesslerDP 800Fly! for Mac Co-moderator

[Guest Allan Jones]

Franklin and Rich,It's been my impression that ZIF upgrades, where the original processor is physically replaced, are exempt from dire warnings about non-support. I believe those cautions apply to Nubus, L2 slot, and PCI slot processor upgrades, where the orig processor stays in the 'puter but is superseded by the new card.A number of the folks on the Beige G3 discussion board have both OSX and ZIF upgrades.I'm thinking about switching out my orig 8GB HD for a 60 or 80 as soon as I recover from the first week of college. I promise you guys I'll partition a piece that will accept OSX. Come on--drag me kicking and screaming into the 20th century!!! :DSpeaking of college, moving Rachel kindled memories. She and her roommate have know since May that they were sharing, so have been in touch all summer coordinating the room decor and features. Their towels are even themed! I recall that, with guys, the only discussion of dorm decor was figuring out which wall to stack the empty beer cans against!Thanks guys,